Cycling deaths in Toronto traced back to city infrastructure

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 7:22:18 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

This insitance on $100.00+ DRL for bicycles is like telling potential
bicyclists they need to only ride in protected/segragated bike lanes -
that is it DISCOURAGES them from using their bicycles or from buying one to use.

Cheers

I don't buy that. It's the same argument that AHZs use when saying people
recommending helmets are scaring away cyclists. I think most people see a
guy with bright flashers in the daylight think either the guy was riding
all night and forgot to turn them off, the guys a bit over cautious or the
guy is a nut. Or there are probably some who think it's a good idea.

I see many riders every day and almost no DRLs
I don't use them myself. But I don't see any reason why Joerg shouldn't do
what he thinks is best for his ride. Like I said, as long as he's not
blinding me I don't care.


--
duane

I've seen a lot of people NOT buy a bicycle after they're told they need lights and other stuff and they see the cost of that extra stuff. Remember we're not talking dedicated bicyclists here. These people mostly want a bicycle that'll get them from point A to point B in reasonable time and comfort and with as little expense as needed. Tell a person like that that they need to buy a $100.00 front light a rear light etcetera and they'll often walk out of the shop in disgust.

Cheers

On 2015-07-06 4:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 7:22:18 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

This insitance on $100.00+ DRL for bicycles is like telling
potential bicyclists they need to only ride in
protected/segragated bike lanes - that is it DISCOURAGES them
from using their bicycles or from buying one to use.

Cheers

I don't buy that. It's the same argument that AHZs use when saying
people recommending helmets are scaring away cyclists. I think
most people see a guy with bright flashers in the daylight think
either the guy was riding all night and forgot to turn them off,
the guys a bit over cautious or the guy is a nut. Or there are
probably some who think it's a good idea.

I see many riders every day and almost no DRLs I don't use them
myself. But I don't see any reason why Joerg shouldn't do what he
thinks is best for his ride. Like I said, as long as he's not
blinding me I don't care.


-- duane

I've seen a lot of people NOT buy a bicycle after they're told they
need lights and other stuff and they see the cost of that extra
stuff. Remember we're not talking dedicated bicyclists here. These
people mostly want a bicycle that'll get them from point A to point B
in reasonable time and comfort and with as little expense as needed.
Tell a person like that that they need to buy a $100.00 front light a
rear light etcetera and they'll often walk out of the shop in
^^^^^^^^

So, tell us, how often has that happened?


disgust.


Besides, they should have talked to people who know a bit more about
bicycle lighting. They'd have told them that one can buy a fairly decent
"Be seen" light set for 10-20 bucks. Heck, I could point it right out to
them while they are still at Walmart picking up their $100 bike.

If you want to do more serious rides like at night it has to be better.
But not $100. $30-50 will do. Else they should just limit their rides to
daytime.

It's that simple.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-07-06 4:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/6/2015 6:57 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-07-06 3:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


Unless you spend BIG $ on a light it's not going to be seen by many
motorists in NORMAL BRIGHT DAYLIGHT. ...


Sorry, but that's not true. Try a MagicShine or a knock-off. Even with a
diffuser lens it really makes the bike visible, mostly on account of the
small size of the lamp which concentrates the light in a smaller spot
than a motorcycle headlight with 10x the diameter. Try it out. I am sure
someone in your area has a MagicShine. It can throw out around 1000
lumens which is roughly on par with a motorcycle headlight. Due to the
fact that it is smaller the visiblity is good enough when turned down to
200-300 lumens.

Only a small subset of bicyclists are going to search for a Chinese
discount light of dubious quality, and the ones who don't have very good
reasons for their position.


Smart cyclists know how to read reviews and buy at places where they get
an unconditional money-back guarantee.

Do you find it difficult to navigate Amazon?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-07-06 4:14 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 11:07:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/6/2015 10:45 AM, Joerg wrote:
Even when in my car I find that I see
cyclists with daytime lights much earlier than those without. A few days
ago I talked with a retired sheriff's deputy about it and he said the
same. Those guys know, and they are among the ones who are called out
and see the mess first hand when things went wrong.

Several of my riding friends are cops. They ride without daytime
flashing lights.

And if you're claiming that in bright daylight, someone can see a bike
much earlier if it has a flashing light, a) you must be talking about
one hell of a bright light; and b) what does it matter? Your objective
is to be seen in plenty of time. A few hundred yards is sufficient.
Being spotted from a mile away does nothing for your safety.


Subsequent to the first discussion of flashing lights (SMS I think) I
have been observing bicycle and motorcycle lights more closely. With
the bicycle lights I see they certainly do make the bike (or whatever
that thing is with the bright light) more visible from full dark to a
little while after sunrise, but by, say 2 hours after the sun comes up
they are hardly noticeable on or off. Motorcycle lights are somewhat
similar but being both brighter and larger have some effect later in
the morning, but by "high noon" lights on anything are hardly
noticeable... unless it rains of course.


If someone doesn't see that it's time to hand back the driver's license:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2G-qUSHcu4

The rear lights aren't as good because of the usual problem, too little
angular visibility. Here is an example on how not to do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk8e2ZHcARE


From what I see, the most visible item, in full daylight, is a light
colored shirt.


That works if you don't have to wear a backpack like many longer
distance riders in hot climates have to. Depending on the route I've got
to stuff a gallon or more of water somewhere. Like yesterday.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg wrote:
On 2015-07-06 4:14 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 11:07:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/6/2015 10:45 AM, Joerg wrote:
Even when in my car I find that I see
cyclists with daytime lights much earlier than those without. A few days
ago I talked with a retired sheriff's deputy about it and he said the
same. Those guys know, and they are among the ones who are called out
and see the mess first hand when things went wrong.

Several of my riding friends are cops. They ride without daytime
flashing lights.

And if you're claiming that in bright daylight, someone can see a bike
much earlier if it has a flashing light, a) you must be talking about
one hell of a bright light; and b) what does it matter? Your objective
is to be seen in plenty of time. A few hundred yards is sufficient.
Being spotted from a mile away does nothing for your safety.


Subsequent to the first discussion of flashing lights (SMS I think) I
have been observing bicycle and motorcycle lights more closely. With
the bicycle lights I see they certainly do make the bike (or whatever
that thing is with the bright light) more visible from full dark to a
little while after sunrise, but by, say 2 hours after the sun comes up
they are hardly noticeable on or off. Motorcycle lights are somewhat
similar but being both brighter and larger have some effect later in
the morning, but by "high noon" lights on anything are hardly
noticeable... unless it rains of course.


If someone doesn't see that it's time to hand back the driver's license:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2G-qUSHcu4

The rear lights aren't as good because of the usual problem, too little
angular visibility. Here is an example on how not to do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk8e2ZHcARE


From what I see, the most visible item, in full daylight, is a light
colored shirt.


That works if you don't have to wear a backpack like many longer distance
riders in hot climates have to. Depending on the route I've got to stuff
a gallon or more of water somewhere. Like yesterday.

We do centuries in 32C weather. Some people use camelbacks. They come in
bright colours with reflectors. Personally I don't use them but on my
commutes I have a backpack that's white and blue and has reflective strips.
Like I said before if you don't want to where visible colours buy a
light.

--
duane

Joerg wrote:
On 2015-07-06 4:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 7:22:18 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

This insitance on $100.00+ DRL for bicycles is like telling
potential bicyclists they need to only ride in
protected/segragated bike lanes - that is it DISCOURAGES them
from using their bicycles or from buying one to use.

Cheers

I don't buy that. It's the same argument that AHZs use when saying
people recommending helmets are scaring away cyclists. I think
most people see a guy with bright flashers in the daylight think
either the guy was riding all night and forgot to turn them off,
the guys a bit over cautious or the guy is a nut. Or there are
probably some who think it's a good idea.

I see many riders every day and almost no DRLs I don't use them
myself. But I don't see any reason why Joerg shouldn't do what he
thinks is best for his ride. Like I said, as long as he's not
blinding me I don't care.


-- duane

I've seen a lot of people NOT buy a bicycle after they're told they
need lights and other stuff and they see the cost of that extra
stuff. Remember we're not talking dedicated bicyclists here. These
people mostly want a bicycle that'll get them from point A to point B
in reasonable time and comfort and with as little expense as needed.
Tell a person like that that they need to buy a $100.00 front light a
rear light etcetera and they'll often walk out of the shop in
^^^^^^^^

So, tell us, how often has that happened?


disgust.


Besides, they should have talked to people who know a bit more about
bicycle lighting. They'd have told them that one can buy a fairly decent
"Be seen" light set for 10-20 bucks. Heck, I could point it right out to
them while they are still at Walmart picking up their $100 bike.

If you want to do more serious rides like at night it has to be better.
But not $100. $30-50 will do. Else they should just limit their rides to daytime.

It's that simple.

We're talking about flashers that are bright enough to be effective to be
seen in broad daylight. No one is saying anyone should ride at night
without lights.

--
duane

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 7:22:18 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:

This insitance on $100.00+ DRL for bicycles is like telling potential
bicyclists they need to only ride in protected/segragated bike lanes -
that is it DISCOURAGES them from using their bicycles or from buying one to use.

Cheers

I don't buy that. It's the same argument that AHZs use when saying people
recommending helmets are scaring away cyclists. I think most people see a
guy with bright flashers in the daylight think either the guy was riding
all night and forgot to turn them off, the guys a bit over cautious or the
guy is a nut. Or there are probably some who think it's a good idea.

I see many riders every day and almost no DRLs
I don't use them myself. But I don't see any reason why Joerg shouldn't do
what he thinks is best for his ride. Like I said, as long as he's not
blinding me I don't care.


--
duane

I've seen a lot of people NOT buy a bicycle after they're told they need
lights and other stuff and they see the cost of that extra stuff.
Remember we're not talking dedicated bicyclists here. These people mostly
want a bicycle that'll get them from point A to point B in reasonable
time and comfort and with as little expense as needed. Tell a person like
that that they need to buy a $100.00 front light a rear light etcetera
and they'll often walk out of the shop in disgust.

Cheers

Yeah but I don't know of any shops that will tell anyone they need daytime
running lights. They'll probably recommend lights if the person wants to
ride at night. And they won't cost $100 bucks. And I doubt the Canadian
Tire type stores are going to even recommend lights for night driving.

Like I said there are rarely bikes with DRLs here.

--
duane

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 2:13:13 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-07-06 2:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 11:20:05 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-07-06 11:09 AM, sms wrote:

[...]

No one would argue that a front flasher makes you more visible
to opposing traffic or side-entering traffic. I see it every
single day--drivers thinking about a right on red in front of me
not doing it because I am so conspicuous, drivers not making a
left in front of me because it registers on their brain that
something is coming toward them. Drivers not making a right hook,
as I speed down the bike lane as they are waiting to make a right
turn.


That is exactly what I am experiencing. Mostly drivers wanting to
pull out of side roads or parking lots. Because they see me much
earlier they still have a chance to reverse and roll back a few
feet. Upon which I always thank them even though I don't have to.
Courtesy goes a long way.

How do you know they see you "much earlier"? I have cars roll back
when I'm not riding with a light. Not saying you should shut off the
light, but without stopping and questioning the motorist, you're
simply guessing at motivation.


It's my exprience. I ride a lot. Over my lifetime it's definitely well
in the six digit miles.

The difference in _timely_ car driver behavior with and without bright
lighting is HUGE. It is not a guess. You can dispute that and not
believe me. But I know it and will, therefore, ride with daytime lights
all the time.

I don't doubt that you ride a lot, but I get the sense that you don't ride a lot on roads with traffic. I've ridden the same route(s) to work in downtown PDX for 28 years (Gawd . . . time for suicide). I can't tell why a car does or does not pull out in front of me -- except when it is an asshole who makes eye contact and still pulls out because he or she is psychopath. I suspect my flasher gets the attention of car drivers, but I don't know if that attention makes any difference, viz., whether I would have been seen without it. I've been riding to work lately without any lights, and cars still pull back when I approach, but I get the sense that it is because they have become educated about the bike lane -- or because of my position. On my ride to work, I cross a succession of roads entering from the right up steep hills, so the drivers tend to launch over the lip to see around bushes and other obstructions.

I pull out further toward the lane -- into that double line area -- and the cars pull back. I'm a pretty visible guy. Another thing I do is use cars for cover -- pick up my speed and shadow a car. Let it plow the field. I rarely run my flasher in bright daylight, but sometimes it feels like I'm in a Frogger game or one of those old drivers-ed simulator movies where everything is jumping out at you -- and then I might turn it on.

I haven't collided with a car for a very long time -- but I don't want to jinx myself by talking about it.


-- Jay Beattie.

On 7/6/2015 8:00 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-07-06 4:54 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I've seen a lot of people NOT buy a bicycle after they're told they
need lights and other stuff and they see the cost of that extra
stuff. Remember we're not talking dedicated bicyclists here. These
people mostly want a bicycle that'll get them from point A to point B
in reasonable time and comfort and with as little expense as needed.
Tell a person like that that they need to buy a $100.00 front light a
rear light etcetera and they'll often walk out of the shop in
^^^^^^^^

So, tell us, how often has that happened?

My guess? A lot more often than I've had motorists cut me off because I
didn't have a daytime running light.

And in case you're confused, those cut-offs never happen to me, despite
no daytime lights, and despite only dynamo powered lights at night.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 7/6/2015 8:20 PM, Joerg wrote:



If someone doesn't see that it's time to hand back the driver's license:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2G-qUSHcu4

??? So what is that guy afraid of? Doesn't the video make it perfectly
clear that his own body is much more noticeable than the lights? Where
in that video do you think he might have gotten hit if he had no lights??


The rear lights aren't as good because of the usual problem, too little
angular visibility. Here is an example on how not to do it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk8e2ZHcARE

Why? Because we still had a little vision left after the headlights
blinded us?

--
- Frank Krygowski