Too much bike news

On Monday, July 15, 2013 3:38:36 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/15/2013 1:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:23:18 -0700, Dan

wrote:



To abandon *hope* for a 12-year old child - under *any*

circumstances - is pretty damned cynical.



True. Persistence pays off eventually. I'm undecided on whether

there's any hope for this 12 year old aspiring burglar or the window

smasher. The problem is not that they're stealing, which most 12 year

old will at least try. I know because I did that. The problem is

that they got caught and repeated their mistakes. Any 12 year old

with at least 1/2 of a brain can get away with a burglary and not get

caught. Robbing a bank is a bit much, but if he had been a bit

quicker, he could have done a "smash and grab" and be gone on his

bicycle before the police arrived. My conclusion is that these kids

don't have the necessary intelligence to pull off a successful

burglary and will continue to fail if they repeat the exercise. From

that perspective, there's no hope.



For what it's worth, I was a model juvenile delinquent until I was

about 17 years old. The problem was that I was too smart to be

(easily) caught, and therefore did not have many visits to the Smog

Angeles juvenile hall. What got my attention was when my father took

me to lunch one day after work. Instead of the usual Iranian owned

Jewish delicatessen, we ended up at the downtown church run Union

Rescue Mission. That's the soup kitchen of it's day, known today as a

homeless shelter. I ended up sitting next to someone that smelled as

bad as he looked. Neither my father or I said anything as it was

obvious this had been arranged with the priest (which included hiring

a guard to keep the car from getting trashed or stolen). Everyone was

staring at me, or seemed to be staring at me.



On the way back to the factory, my father was again silent. But, when

he parked the car, he turned to me and said "That's what happens when

you screw up". I got the message and cleaned up my act. While I'm

hardly a model citizen, I changed my lifestyle sufficiently to become

socially acceptable. That incluced several moves to get away from bad

influences, which might be the problem with the 12 year old kid.



More recently. I've been doing something like that to other kids.

However, it's not over crime, as I don't seem to have any effect in

that area. It's over smoking. For a while, I was dragging 10-13 year

olds, that were caught smoking, to the local hospital and giving them

a tour of the lung cancer and emphysema survivors. I don't have to

give a lecture as most of the patients will try to jump out of bed and

lecture the kid on the bad things that smoking can do. Batting

average is about 50% which I consider good enough. Something like

that should be done with kids that are into crime, but I don't have a

workable method that would even come close to 50% success.









In re hope, this is the most inspiring tale I've read this

summer, an excerpt from:

http://moot.typepad.com/what_if/2013...crates-do.html



Shorris recounts the story of a young man in his first class

— a 24-year-old with a history of violent behavior — who

called him describing how a woman at work had provoked him.

"She made me so mad, I wanted to smack her up against the

wall. I tried to talk to some friends to calm myself down a

little, but nobody was around." Shorris asked him what he

did, "fearing this was his one telephone call from the city

jail."



Instead, he told Shorris, "I asked myself, 'What would

Socrates do?' "

Very interesting!

I don't know how many are familiar with the McGuffey Readers, a super-popular series of textbooks used in schools from the mid-1800s until a few decades ago. They taught reading, grammar, etc. but were laced with moral lessons and values.

I'm not sure most kids are getting those kinds of lessons today. In fact, pop culture does the opposite. (I watched a kids' singing contest the other week, and I was amazed at the sexy stuff being belted out by 10-year-old girls.)

BTW, McGuffey got his start where I live. There's a McGuffey Road here that goes past his family homestead.

- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:38:36 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Instead, he told Shorris, "I asked myself, 'What would
Socrates do?' "

The standard answer for the ancient Greeks was to draft the troubled
kid into the army and teach him some discipline. The survivors
usually came out better citizens.

One of the foundations of a classical education is logic which in this
case means having the 12 year old actually try to think ahead and
predict what might happen if he tries to rob a bank. It's simple
causality in action. After he smashed the front door with a rock,
what happens next and what should he do? From the article, I don't
think he even went so far as to work out the causality chain. He just
tossed the rock through the door and hoped for the best.

That's the real problem, as evidenced by 8 prior felony screwups. He
acted, didn't think, and got caught. This kid is obviously not a
brilliant logician. What he should have done was planned the bank
robbery, made contingency plans if something went wrong, weighed
various alternatives, calculated the opportunity costs, and had at
least one exit strategy mapped out. Even 12 year olds are capable of
doing that much, but this kid was running on pure impulsive behavior.
Give a kid like that a classical education, and he will not be able to
apply it in his life as long as he acts on impulse.

The problem is much like playing chess. A really good chess player
will be able to play the game about 10 moves in advance. Chess
masters can probably do even better. I'm a lousy player, but can do
perhaps 4 moves before I'm overwhelmed with choices. The 12 year old
probably can't do more than 1 move ahead, if that. If he can't plan
ahead, or recognize the connection between causes and effects, he will
continue his pattern of self-defeating behavior. That's his real
problem.

Instead of a classical education, I would shove a math class down his
throat. Skipping many intermediate topics, I would teach him game
theory and probability. With these tools, if he is unable to
visualize the effects and reactions to his behavior, then perhaps he
can calculate them. I've actually done this, to solve a different
problem. One of my cousins is a compulsive gambler. Unfortunately,
his kids have exhibited similar behavior. So, I taught them
probability, game theory, investment analysis, and time value of money
when they were about 16 years old. I sorta tricked them by convincing
them it would help them make better bets. It worked better than I
expected. After analyzing various bets and investments, they could
easily predict the outcome and their chances of winning. They still
gambled, but far more intelligently.

The same classes might benefit the 12 year old. If it would teach him
to only think one step ahead, it would probably at least slow down his
attempts at failure prone actions. Two steps ahead, and he would
probably be cured of his bad habits. Think about it the next time you
impulsively do something. You're acting exactly like the 12 year old.

ok. Image backup is done. Back to work...

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:34:24 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:

For a specific action plan, you'd need to be in a position to know and
understand as many details as possible - intimately - and to develop
that understanding and adjust the approach dynamically in an organic,
personal, loose but ideally not too tenuous human feedback loop.

Sounds like you can't even suggest a plausible plan. Not helpful, Dan.


I was saying there's not enough information to form an approach.
That can be overcome, but not without hope.

Okay, you want a flip plan (that just might work)? Offer the kid
part-time work after school sweeping the floor of the bike shop.
Give him his turn to pick the radio station playing in the back.
Teach him some wrenching. Pick a few customers for him to help.
Take him riding. Take him to the races. Give him a chance to earn
his own bike by working *and* staying out of trouble. Be proud of
his accomplishments. Be someone he can count on to never, ever give
up hope.

It takes a village. Keep hope alive.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:31:09 PM UTC-4, Dan wrote:


I was saying there's not enough information to form an approach.

That can be overcome, but not without hope.



Okay, you want a flip plan (that just might work)? Offer the kid

part-time work after school sweeping the floor of the bike shop.

Give him his turn to pick the radio station playing in the back.

Teach him some wrenching. Pick a few customers for him to help.

Take him riding. Take him to the races. Give him a chance to earn

his own bike by working *and* staying out of trouble. Be proud of

his accomplishments. Be someone he can count on to never, ever give

up hope.



It takes a village. Keep hope alive.

I agree, your plan might work. I've heard of such things happening.

One problem, though, is that it doesn't scale. In an area like mine (much unlike Jay's) there are very few bike shops. The ones that exist are not very easy for inner city kids - who are the real problem - to get to. And while there may be other sorts of businesses that might fulfill the same function, business owners tend to prefer to concentrate on a) their own kids, and b) not going bankrupt.

Now I feel compelled to mention this: In our city center, an institute of sorts was started to motivate inner city kids through the arts. My daughter (with her music degree) worked there, teaching violin/fiddle to young kids who would come there after school, free of charge.

Trouble was, a class of six or eight (I forget) kids had to share one or two fiddles. That's just unworkable. So we bought enough decent-but-inexpensive violins (consulting with our own teacher) to outfit the class and donated them to the program. Yeah, they took our picture for a magazine and such. They're still using them, and the program has grown tremendously. We still support that program.

I still get the feeling, though, that special programs like this leave far, far too many kids out on their own, so to speak.

I don't know what the answer is. But when experience shows that a certain kid has less than 4% chance of succeeding in life, something does need to change. And it needs to change in a way that will save more than just that particular kid.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, July 15, 2013 9:39:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:31:09 PM UTC-4, Dan wrote:





I was saying there's not enough information to form an approach.



That can be overcome, but not without hope.







Okay, you want a flip plan (that just might work)? Offer the kid



part-time work after school sweeping the floor of the bike shop.



Give him his turn to pick the radio station playing in the back.



Teach him some wrenching. Pick a few customers for him to help.



Take him riding. Take him to the races. Give him a chance to earn



his own bike by working *and* staying out of trouble. Be proud of



his accomplishments. Be someone he can count on to never, ever give



up hope.







It takes a village. Keep hope alive.



I agree, your plan might work. I've heard of such things happening.



One problem, though, is that it doesn't scale. In an area like mine (much unlike Jay's) there are very few bike shops. The ones that exist are not very easy for inner city kids - who are the real problem - to get to. And while there may be other sorts of businesses that might fulfill the same function, business owners tend to prefer to concentrate on a) their own kids, and b) not going bankrupt.



Now I feel compelled to mention this: In our city center, an institute of sorts was started to motivate inner city kids through the arts. My daughter (with her music degree) worked there, teaching violin/fiddle to young kids who would come there after school, free of charge.



Trouble was, a class of six or eight (I forget) kids had to share one or two fiddles. That's just unworkable. So we bought enough decent-but-inexpensive violins (consulting with our own teacher) to outfit the class and donated them to the program. Yeah, they took our picture for a magazine and such. They're still using them, and the program has grown tremendously. We still support that program.



I still get the feeling, though, that special programs like this leave far, far too many kids out on their own, so to speak.



I don't know what the answer is. But when experience shows that a certain kid has less than 4% chance of succeeding in life, something does need to change. And it needs to change in a way that will save more than just that particular kid.


There is no one-size-fits-all-plan, but you weren't accepting, "it
depends", instead insisted on a specific action plan for this one
hypothetical kid, so I tossed out a flip one (for what it's worth,
my first thought was music :-)

There is only one thing that *every* plan with *any* chance of success
will have in common - only one thing - and that is never give up hope.

And yes, it doesn't scale, which is why it takes a village. And yes,
it's extremely consuming, which is why parents are so important.

http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife...achment-theory

And the kid might stab you in the back (which is a real test of hope.)

It's not hard to see why so many people are so messed up; but I still
hope:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1613092/

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 13:04:22 -0700 (PDT), Dan O
wrote:

On Monday, July 15, 2013 9:39:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:31:09 PM UTC-4, Dan wrote:





I was saying there's not enough information to form an approach.



That can be overcome, but not without hope.







Okay, you want a flip plan (that just might work)? Offer the kid



part-time work after school sweeping the floor of the bike shop.



Give him his turn to pick the radio station playing in the back.



Teach him some wrenching. Pick a few customers for him to help.



Take him riding. Take him to the races. Give him a chance to earn



his own bike by working *and* staying out of trouble. Be proud of



his accomplishments. Be someone he can count on to never, ever give



up hope.







It takes a village. Keep hope alive.



I agree, your plan might work. I've heard of such things happening.



One problem, though, is that it doesn't scale. In an area like mine (much unlike Jay's) there are very few bike shops. The ones that exist are not very easy for inner city kids - who are the real problem - to get to. And while there may be other sorts of businesses that might fulfill the same function, business owners tend to prefer to concentrate on a) their own kids, and b) not going bankrupt.



Now I feel compelled to mention this: In our city center, an institute of sorts was started to motivate inner city kids through the arts. My daughter (with her music degree) worked there, teaching violin/fiddle to young kids who would come there after school, free of charge.



Trouble was, a class of six or eight (I forget) kids had to share one or two fiddles. That's just unworkable. So we bought enough decent-but-inexpensive violins (consulting with our own teacher) to outfit the class and donated them to the program. Yeah, they took our picture for a magazine and such. They're still using them, and the program has grown tremendously. We still support that program.



I still get the feeling, though, that special programs like this leave far, far too many kids out on their own, so to speak.



I don't know what the answer is. But when experience shows that a certain kid has less than 4% chance of succeeding in life, something does need to change. And it needs to change in a way that will save more than just that particular kid.


There is no one-size-fits-all-plan, but you weren't accepting, "it
depends", instead insisted on a specific action plan for this one
hypothetical kid, so I tossed out a flip one (for what it's worth,
my first thought was music :-)

There is only one thing that *every* plan with *any* chance of success
will have in common - only one thing - and that is never give up hope.

And yes, it doesn't scale, which is why it takes a village. And yes,
it's extremely consuming, which is why parents are so important.

http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife...achment-theory

And the kid might stab you in the back (which is a real test of hope.)

It's not hard to see why so many people are so messed up; but I still
hope:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1613092/

The problem with "plans" is that those who are being planned for must
see the plan as a positive act on their part rather than something
that is inflicted upon them and they must see the plan as benefiting
them.

Years ago there was plan to get jobs for unemployed persons in
Detroit. The group conducting the plan went to the car manufacturers
and got them to create non-skilled positions and then tried to fit the
unemployed into these positions. At that time the unemployed in
Detroit was into the 3rd generation.

The plan failed as the unemployed had no conception of "a day's work
for a day's pay" and in addition a steady job was not seen as a plus
in the society in which they existed.


--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. writes:

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 13:04:22 -0700 (PDT), Dan O
wrote:

On Monday, July 15, 2013 9:39:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:31:09 PM UTC-4, Dan wrote:


I was saying there's not enough information to form an approach.
That can be overcome, but not without hope.

Okay, you want a flip plan (that just might work)? Offer the kid
part-time work after school sweeping the floor of the bike shop.
Give him his turn to pick the radio station playing in the back.
Teach him some wrenching. Pick a few customers for him to help.
Take him riding. Take him to the races. Give him a chance to earn
his own bike by working *and* staying out of trouble. Be proud of
his accomplishments. Be someone he can count on to never, ever give
up hope.

It takes a village. Keep hope alive.

I agree, your plan might work. I've heard of such things happening.


snip


There is no one-size-fits-all-plan, but you weren't accepting, "it
depends", instead insisted on a specific action plan for this one
hypothetical kid, so I tossed out a flip one (for what it's worth,
my first thought was music :-)


snip


http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife...achment-theory


snip


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1613092/

The problem with "plans" is that those who are being planned for must
see the plan as a positive act on their part rather than something
that is inflicted upon them and they must see the plan as benefiting
them.


I'm with you. Note that earlier I declined to make a plan beyond
getting to the bottom of what was going on.

My flip "plan" basically amounted to giving the kid an attachment
figure and exposing him to positive opportunities for self-esteem.

Years ago there was plan to get jobs for unemployed persons in
Detroit. The group conducting the plan went to the car manufacturers
and got them to create non-skilled positions and then tried to fit the
unemployed into these positions. At that time the unemployed in
Detroit was into the 3rd generation.

The plan failed as the unemployed had no conception of "a day's work
for a day's pay" and in addition a steady job was not seen as a plus
in the society in which they existed.


Again I hear you. (Note that I said, "part-time".) I was fortunate
to work for an uncompromising (but fair) taskmaster from a young age.
Typical work ethic that I have generally seen since is mindblowingly
absent.

But hope springs eternal.

On Tuesday, July 16, 2013 8:23:44 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

Years ago there was plan to get jobs for unemployed persons in

Detroit. The group conducting the plan went to the car manufacturers

and got them to create non-skilled positions and then tried to fit the

unemployed into these positions. At that time the unemployed in

Detroit was into the 3rd generation.



The plan failed as the unemployed had no conception of "a day's work

for a day's pay" and in addition a steady job was not seen as a plus

in the society in which they existed.

More on that "society in which they existed" thing: A few years ago, a colleague recommended I read a book about helping people rise out of poverty. It claimed to explain aspects of culture common among low-income people in the U.S.

One important example was that, supposedly, they often value relationships more than money or material things. Sounds good, in a way. But there was this example of unintended consequences. (This is from memory, so forgive any detail mistakes.)

One young woman had, after a life of poverty, gotten into a program that helped her get her GED and find a job, something like a school secretary, IIRC. Anyway, she was making money, but had debts. Somehow, one person working with her found out that her family didn't even have a refrigerator. This had the effect of wasting a lot of her food money.

Word got around, and the other workers all chipped in and raised enough money to give the woman a refrigerator - a _very_ nice gesture. But soon, she was missing work for a while. And when she returned, they found out she no longer had the refrigerator.

She had sold it, and used the money to take her family on a little vacation.. It was far more important for her to do something nice for her family (even though it was temporary), than to have a refrigerator, even though the refrigerator would save her money in the long run.

So, widely differing value systems can mess with the best of intentions.

- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski writes:

snip


I don't know how many are familiar with the McGuffey Readers, a super-popular series of textbooks used in schools from the mid-1800s until a few decades ago. They taught reading, grammar, etc. but were laced with moral lessons and values.

I'm not sure most kids are getting those kinds of lessons today. In fact, pop culture does the opposite. (I watched a kids' singing contest the other week, and I was amazed at the sexy stuff being belted out by 10-year-old girls.)


Shortly after my daughter learned to talk, she was singing, "Why
don't we do it in the road?" :-)

BTW...

snip

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:57:37 -0700, Dan
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 13:04:22 -0700 (PDT), Dan O
wrote:

On Monday, July 15, 2013 9:39:48 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, July 15, 2013 8:31:09 PM UTC-4, Dan wrote:


I was saying there's not enough information to form an approach.
That can be overcome, but not without hope.

Okay, you want a flip plan (that just might work)? Offer the kid
part-time work after school sweeping the floor of the bike shop.
Give him his turn to pick the radio station playing in the back.
Teach him some wrenching. Pick a few customers for him to help.
Take him riding. Take him to the races. Give him a chance to earn
his own bike by working *and* staying out of trouble. Be proud of
his accomplishments. Be someone he can count on to never, ever give
up hope.

It takes a village. Keep hope alive.

I agree, your plan might work. I've heard of such things happening.


snip


There is no one-size-fits-all-plan, but you weren't accepting, "it
depends", instead insisted on a specific action plan for this one
hypothetical kid, so I tossed out a flip one (for what it's worth,
my first thought was music :-)


snip


http://www.pbs.org/thisemotionallife...achment-theory


snip


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1613092/

The problem with "plans" is that those who are being planned for must
see the plan as a positive act on their part rather than something
that is inflicted upon them and they must see the plan as benefiting
them.


I'm with you. Note that earlier I declined to make a plan beyond
getting to the bottom of what was going on.

My flip "plan" basically amounted to giving the kid an attachment
figure and exposing him to positive opportunities for self-esteem.

Years ago there was plan to get jobs for unemployed persons in
Detroit. The group conducting the plan went to the car manufacturers
and got them to create non-skilled positions and then tried to fit the
unemployed into these positions. At that time the unemployed in
Detroit was into the 3rd generation.

The plan failed as the unemployed had no conception of "a day's work
for a day's pay" and in addition a steady job was not seen as a plus
in the society in which they existed.


Again I hear you. (Note that I said, "part-time".) I was fortunate
to work for an uncompromising (but fair) taskmaster from a young age.
Typical work ethic that I have generally seen since is mindblowingly
absent.

But hope springs eternal.

Admittedly I haven't had experience with many down and outers but it
was my experience in the A.F. (for 20 years) that many people do not
have any pride in themselves at all; or perhaps their pride is
directed at other things then their work.

When I was stationed at Shreveport, La., I worked part time for a
gunsmith who had one bloke on some sort of learn a job project, I
disremember whether state or federal funded. In talking with the lad I
found that he (1) had some sort of rent controlled housing that he
only paid a few dollars a month for; (2) had a cheap used car that the
"government" had underwritten the cost of; and finally he was
receiving some sort of minimum salary for working at the gunsmith shop
and he was happy.

I gathered that he came from some hillside farm in Arkansas and when
he had now, in the big city, was far more than he had "back home" and
he had no inclination to learn the trade or otherwise better himself.

--
Cheers,

John B.