Trek Emonda / Gravel & Rail Trail

On 02/06/2015 2:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2015 14:26:55 +1000, James
wrote:

On 02/06/15 10:53, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 01 Jun 2015 10:46:00 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-05-31 8:28 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/30/2015 3:51 PM, Commuting253 wrote:
Hi folks... I am looking at a Trek Emonda S4 and while
I plan to be on the road most of the time, I wonder how
it will put up with rail-trail and minor "off road"
type surfaces. While Trek advertises the Domane for
this type of Roubaix riding, how do you all think the
Emonda would hold up? Thanks... B

I wouldn't be worried about it holding up mechanically,
assuming you mean a normal rail trail. (Everything Jeorg
rides is epic and bike-destroying, as he's made clear.
I'm assuming your use will be more sane.)


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2010/05/...rides-old.html




http://www.bustedcarbon.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Does anyone know whether a titanium road bike (cyclo-cross)
frame has as much chain ring sway as a steel frame when
hammering up a hill? Carbon frames don't have that problem
at all but with my usual riding routes I'd be a bit
concerned about carbon.


I suspect that it would depend on the alloy of titanium that
is used in the frame tubing and there are at least 50
different grades at my last count.

As a quick comparison 304L Stainless has a tensile strength
of 486 MPa (70,343 psi). Titanium grade 1 is 240 MPa (34,809
psi) and Grade 5, which seems to be about the upper strength
limit, is 895 MPa (129,808 psi).

As a further comparison Aluminum 6061-T6 is 290 MPa (42,000
psi) and Columbus Nobium steel alloy is 1050 - 1250 MPa (
152,000 - 181,000 psi)


It depends greatly on the frame design and tubing used. My
steel frame felt subjectively stiffer than a mates titanium
frame. The two are about the same size, and his is slightly
lighter but mine feels slightly stiffer. Certainly I have
encountered bikes where the chain rings wobble left and right
when you are heaving on the pedals, but my steel frame is not
like this. The chain rings barely show signs of flex in the
frame at all, with all my strength applied.


The titanium MTB of my friend is the most rigid a stiff-framed bike
I've ever ridden (except for carbon). So yes, with your numbers the
magic really seems to be in the frame design. With titanium one can
splurge more than with heavier materials.


I really wonder how much B.B. movement there actually is/was?
After all, people like Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or Lance
Armstrong for that matter didn't seem to be continually whining
about the bottom bracket flexing.


Well, they had paying sponsors and didn't have to worry when the
front derailleur had rubbed through again.


My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember
bike magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point
where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to
accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So
if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move
the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding
pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a
little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is
standard operating procedure.


Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore because
index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight chain
ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.


What are you talking about? My ultegra brifters let me trim the front
derailleurs just like SRA is telling you. My new SRAM setup doesn't
have trim but it's doesn't seem to be a problem so far.

Or are you talking about something specific to MTB gearing that I'm not
familiar with?


There were some Shimano and Suntour top of the downtube mounted gear
shifters that had an internal cam action so that shifts with the
right rear shifter caused the front shifter to automatically trim the
front derailler.


That would be nice but the Shimano 600 series didn't have that back then.


What impressed me with a titanium MTB frame was the almost total absence
of chain ring wobble. I am wondering whether that would be the same on
cyclo-cross titanium frames.

On 03/06/15 03:11, Joerg wrote:


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches.

One inch tubes.

Try a steel frame with thin walled and over size tubes. Mine has an
inch and a quarter down tube and inch and an eighth for the other main
tubes, with wall thickness half that of 531 to achieve about the same
weight, but substantially more stiffness. No chain rub on a 10 speed
Campy setup.

--
JS

On 2015-06-02 12:19 PM, Duane wrote:
On 02/06/2015 2:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:

[...]

My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember
bike magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point
where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to
accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So
if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move
the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding
pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a
little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is
standard operating procedure.


Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore because
index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight chain
ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.


What are you talking about? My ultegra brifters let me trim the front
derailleurs just like SRA is telling you. My new SRAM setup doesn't
have trim but it's doesn't seem to be a problem so far.


Interesting. I never had a bike with brifters, didn't know they can be
trimmed on-the-fly.


Or are you talking about something specific to MTB gearing that I'm not
familiar with?


I have the typical Shimano Deore XT set-up on my MTB and there are no
trim features accessible while riding. Shifting is via gear levers, not
brifters. For trim you'd have to stop and get off the bike.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-06-02 12:22 PM, James wrote:
On 03/06/15 03:11, Joerg wrote:


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches.

One inch tubes.


Only the top tube.


Try a steel frame with thin walled and over size tubes. Mine has an
inch and a quarter down tube and inch and an eighth for the other main
tubes, with wall thickness half that of 531 to achieve about the same
weight, but substantially more stiffness. No chain rub on a 10 speed
Campy setup.


The others are 1-1/8". I guess that's enough of a difference versus
1-1/4" then. The rubbing is minimal but enough that I have to trim back
the front derailleur when shifting from outer sprocket three sprockets
up (so four sprockets difference). Only when I "step on it hard" but
then it's quite audible.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 02/06/2015 3:37 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 12:19 PM, Duane wrote:
On 02/06/2015 2:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:

[...]

My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember
bike magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point
where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to
accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So
if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move
the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding
pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a
little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is
standard operating procedure.


Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore because
index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight chain
ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.


What are you talking about? My ultegra brifters let me trim the front
derailleurs just like SRA is telling you. My new SRAM setup doesn't
have trim but it's doesn't seem to be a problem so far.


Interesting. I never had a bike with brifters, didn't know they can be
trimmed on-the-fly.


Or are you talking about something specific to MTB gearing that I'm not
familiar with?


I have the typical Shimano Deore XT set-up on my MTB and there are no
trim features accessible while riding. Shifting is via gear levers, not
brifters. For trim you'd have to stop and get off the bike.



With brifters you have a sort of half push that does the trim before the
full push clicks the change.

On 6/2/2015 2:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 12:22 PM, James wrote:
On 03/06/15 03:11, Joerg wrote:


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road
bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches.

One inch tubes.


Only the top tube.


Try a steel frame with thin walled and over size tubes.
Mine has an
inch and a quarter down tube and inch and an eighth for
the other main
tubes, with wall thickness half that of 531 to achieve
about the same
weight, but substantially more stiffness. No chain rub on
a 10 speed
Campy setup.


The others are 1-1/8". I guess that's enough of a difference
versus 1-1/4" then. The rubbing is minimal but enough that I
have to trim back the front derailleur when shifting from
outer sprocket three sprockets up (so four sprockets
difference). Only when I "step on it hard" but then it's
quite audible.


Diameter makes all the difference. Note the exponents:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/to...fts-d_947.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2015-06-02 12:57 PM, Duane wrote:
On 02/06/2015 3:37 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 12:19 PM, Duane wrote:
On 02/06/2015 2:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:

[...]

My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember
bike magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point
where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to
accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So
if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move
the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding
pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a
little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is
standard operating procedure.


Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore
because
index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight
chain
ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.


What are you talking about? My ultegra brifters let me trim the front
derailleurs just like SRA is telling you. My new SRAM setup doesn't
have trim but it's doesn't seem to be a problem so far.


Interesting. I never had a bike with brifters, didn't know they can be
trimmed on-the-fly.


Or are you talking about something specific to MTB gearing that I'm not
familiar with?


I have the typical Shimano Deore XT set-up on my MTB and there are no
trim features accessible while riding. Shifting is via gear levers, not
brifters. For trim you'd have to stop and get off the bike.



With brifters you have a sort of half push that does the trim before the
full push clicks the change.


But how does the brifter know what to set the derailleur trim to once it
clicked? Do you somehow have to shift in and out on the front after a
gross change in back? Sounds like more effort than with my old friction
shifters.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-06-02 1:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/2/2015 2:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 12:22 PM, James wrote:
On 03/06/15 03:11, Joerg wrote:


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road
bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches.

One inch tubes.


Only the top tube.


Try a steel frame with thin walled and over size tubes.
Mine has an
inch and a quarter down tube and inch and an eighth for
the other main
tubes, with wall thickness half that of 531 to achieve
about the same
weight, but substantially more stiffness. No chain rub on
a 10 speed
Campy setup.


The others are 1-1/8". I guess that's enough of a difference
versus 1-1/4" then. The rubbing is minimal but enough that I
have to trim back the front derailleur when shifting from
outer sprocket three sprockets up (so four sprockets
difference). Only when I "step on it hard" but then it's
quite audible.


Diameter makes all the difference. Note the exponents:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/to...fts-d_947.html


Thanks. It sure does. Maybe that's the reason why. I've had it on modern
aluminum bikes as well though and they had huge hydroformed tubes. Even
my aluminum-frame MTB does it to some extent, just not enough to bother
the shifting in back. The much titanium bike behaves like a rock
although the outer tube diameter is much lower but I don't know the wall
thickness.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 3:37:28 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 12:19 PM, Duane wrote:
On 02/06/2015 2:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:

[...]

My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember
bike magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point
where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to
accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So
if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move
the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding
pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a
little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is
standard operating procedure.


Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore because
index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight chain
ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.


What are you talking about? My ultegra brifters let me trim the front
derailleurs just like SRA is telling you. My new SRAM setup doesn't
have trim but it's doesn't seem to be a problem so far.


Interesting. I never had a bike with brifters, didn't know they can be
trimmed on-the-fly.


Or are you talking about something specific to MTB gearing that I'm not
familiar with?


I have the typical Shimano Deore XT set-up on my MTB and there are no
trim features accessible while riding. Shifting is via gear levers, not
brifters. For trim you'd have to stop and get off the bike.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I notice that you've again shifted the topic from ROAD BIKES to MTBs.

If the front derailler rub is that bad on your mtb then put a friction front thumb shifter on it. Are you sure that you have the right front derailler for your shifters?

Cheers

Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 12:57 PM, Duane wrote:
On 02/06/2015 3:37 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 12:19 PM, Duane wrote:
On 02/06/2015 2:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 10:23 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 1:11:23 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-06-02 4:25 AM, John B. wrote:

[...]

My memory may be faulty but "back in the day" I don't remember
bike magazines making a big meal out of it either.

Maybe it is all this light weight plastic stuff :-)


It's real. Even my otherwise robust Reynolds 531 road bike has
substantial chain ring wobble on uphill stretches. To the point
where the old Shimano 600 front derailleur isn't wide enough to
accomodate more than three sprockets of the six available ones. So
if I am shifting 2-3 sprockets in the back I have to slightl move
the friction shifter for the front to avoid the wee grinding
pulses. Now that I mounted a set of MTB sprockets it's gotten a
little better as I don't need to apply so much torque anymore.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Trimming the front derailler as you shif a few gears in back is
standard operating procedure.


Not on my mountain bike. Nowadays it isn't even possible anymore
because
index shifter can't trim during the ride. The MTB does have slight
chain
ring wobble so the adjustment needs to be quite precise.


What are you talking about? My ultegra brifters let me trim the front
derailleurs just like SRA is telling you. My new SRAM setup doesn't
have trim but it's doesn't seem to be a problem so far.


Interesting. I never had a bike with brifters, didn't know they can be
trimmed on-the-fly.


Or are you talking about something specific to MTB gearing that I'm not
familiar with?


I have the typical Shimano Deore XT set-up on my MTB and there are no
trim features accessible while riding. Shifting is via gear levers, not
brifters. For trim you'd have to stop and get off the bike.



With brifters you have a sort of half push that does the trim before the
full push clicks the change.


But how does the brifter know what to set the derailleur trim to once it
clicked? Do you somehow have to shift in and out on the front after a
gross change in back? Sounds like more effort than with my old friction shifters.

No idea. Never thought about it.

--
duane