True Temper calling it quits

the aforementioned posters are shoveling **** getting yawl into THEIR post.

while steel is real in a custom bike Ti is more real...and equally endangered.

at what level $$$$$ for custom does an extra shovel of $$$$ interfere with surreality

?

CF gives me a headache. In kayak canoe and bicycle. neurotic ... Ima gonna get an aspirin.

what CF malfunctions ? we have looked hi and lo for reports n found barely a handful with a couplah fork disasters....also finding malfunction reports go back to the factory not to liability insurance adjusters n the State Board

On 2016-12-30 11:46, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
the aforementioned posters are shoveling **** getting yawl into THEIR
post.

while steel is real in a custom bike Ti is more real...and equally
endangered.

at what level $$$$$ for custom does an extra shovel of $$$$ interfere
with surreality

?

CF gives me a headache. In kayak canoe and bicycle. neurotic ... Ima
gonna get an aspirin.

what CF malfunctions ? we have looked hi and lo for reports n found
barely a handful with a couplah fork disasters....also finding
malfunction reports go back to the factory not to liability insurance
adjusters n the State Board


http://www.bustedcarbon.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn29u7GoqPk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAZ95CBkKOo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9Hpw62w9bE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q5eCREqGuo

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 12/30/2016 1:46 PM, DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
the aforementioned posters are shoveling **** getting yawl into THEIR post.

while steel is real in a custom bike Ti is more real...and equally endangered.

at what level $$$$$ for custom does an extra shovel of $$$$ interfere with surreality

?

CF gives me a headache. In kayak canoe and bicycle. neurotic ... Ima gonna get an aspirin.

what CF malfunctions ? we have looked hi and lo for reports n found barely a handful with a couplah fork disasters....also finding malfunction reports go back to the factory not to liability insurance adjusters n the State Board


Dear Gene-
https://images.devilfinder.com/go.ph...carbon+bicycle

everything breaks.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 8:30:47 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 07:47:51 -0800, Joerg
wrote:
On 2016-12-29 17:28, Doug Landau wrote:
I guess this is old news by now.

http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...le-tubing-line


It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even old
experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article at the bottom
of your link:

http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...n-fiber-frames

There is a steel resurgence? Where? I don't go to bike shops more than
a couple times a year so maybe I've missed it. I don't see any steel
bikes in most of them- aluminum and CF predominate.

All my bikes are steel but I am not exactly up to date. One's a hub gear
3 sp, one's a 7 speed, two are 8 speeds and all the derailleur bikes
have DT friction shifters. Oh, forgot the tandem which has 9 sp STI.
When I go into bike shops, most of the bikes on offer look like aline
technology to me...

The bikes that the shops are stocking are aluminum and carbon fiber and for the last two month sales have almost stopped. I stopped in to a local old-timey shop that stocks steel only and although sales are slow they are at their normal level.

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 8:54:13 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 8:30:47 AM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 07:47:51 -0800, Joerg
wrote:
On 2016-12-29 17:28, Doug Landau wrote:
I guess this is old news by now.

http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...le-tubing-line


It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even old
experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article at the bottom
of your link:

http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...n-fiber-frames

There is a steel resurgence? Where? I don't go to bike shops more than
a couple times a year so maybe I've missed it. I don't see any steel
bikes in most of them- aluminum and CF predominate.

All my bikes are steel but I am not exactly up to date. One's a hub gear
3 sp, one's a 7 speed, two are 8 speeds and all the derailleur bikes
have DT friction shifters. Oh, forgot the tandem which has 9 sp STI.
When I go into bike shops, most of the bikes on offer look like aline
technology to me...

Hardly true around here. A few of my local bike shops: https://www.westernbikeworks.com/search/road-bikes http://rivercitybicycles.com/catalog/bike-inventory/
http://www.bikegallery.com/product-l...00/?rb_ct=1001

O.K., here are some steel bikes: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...p?category=483
http://clevercycles.com/bicycles/city

My neighborhood bike shop has lots of steel bikes, but it specializes in "classic" bikes. http://www.burlingamebikes.com/the-classics/

This is not to say that we don't have a lot of steel builders, but custom built is a whole different market than OTC steel bikes. http://oregonbikelist.com/list

What I have seen is the market turning more towards carbon with even low-ish end bikes having full carbon forks. I have not been seeing a lot of failed carbon, notwithstanding Tom's failures. Not saying it doesn't happen, but the incident rate is not so high that the market is abandoning CF (and it would if the risk were that high).

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, the newer lighter CF bikes are going to have to age for 3 to 10 years before they begin failing. There will be incidental failures very soon that have to do with bubbles in the layup and such but for the most part young riders that have recently bought high end carbon are going to think complaints about the material crazy until it ages a bit.

I talked to steel bike builders and asked them if they had failures and several of them said "yes". Then I asked them if any of these failures were catastrophic and they all said, "no". The catastrophic failures of carbon fiber are all over the Internet.

If the UCI retains the present weight limit steel bikes can meet it and I think that you will see the end of CF. They are too expensive and they are too stiff for racing.

Somebody or another was arguing that stiffness part but I have all three and have ridden them all within days of each other - all Colnagos. And I can most assuredly tell the difference.

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 9:48:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 08:48, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote:
:On 2016-12-29 17:28, Doug Landau wrote:
: I guess this is old news by now.
:
: http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...le-tubing-line
:

:It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even old
:experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article at the bottom of
:your link:

:http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...n-fiber-frames

Tha'ts because they can't possibly compete with the chinese mass
prouced carbon frames. Steel is a nich product, and the labor costs
are lower.


Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design electronics and
every time a client transfers production to Asia the cost drops to half
or less. Including materials and all. The quality is usually superb (I
often get to check that). Overcoming such a large difference is going to
be a tall order. The cost of doing business in the US is too high. How
much that (hopefully) improves with the new administration remains to be
seen.

If I'd need a new bike it would have a titanium frame. Probably from
Bikesdirect.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In my experience Japanese and Taiwanese products are good. But Taiwanese and Chinese products have very spotty quality control. Hell even a non-stick saucepan has even butter sticking to it.

On 2016-12-30 13:21, wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 9:48:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 08:48, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote: :On 2016-12-29 17:28,
Doug Landau wrote: : I guess this is old news by now. : :
http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...le-tubing-line


:

:It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even
old :experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article at
the bottom of :your link:

:http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...n-fiber-frames



Tha'ts because they can't possibly compete with the chinese mass
prouced carbon frames. Steel is a nich product, and the labor
costs are lower.


Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design electronics
and every time a client transfers production to Asia the cost drops
to half or less. Including materials and all. The quality is
usually superb (I often get to check that). Overcoming such a large
difference is going to be a tall order. The cost of doing business
in the US is too high. How much that (hopefully) improves with the
new administration remains to be seen.

If I'd need a new bike it would have a titanium frame. Probably
from Bikesdirect.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In my experience Japanese and Taiwanese products are good. But
Taiwanese and Chinese products have very spotty quality control. Hell
even a non-stick saucepan has even butter sticking to it.


My MTB buddy has a lot of MTB. Two Specialized FS bikes, two fat bikes
from Bikesdirect and a titanium HT from Bikesdirect. The quality on all
of them is great, welds, geometric precision, build quality in general.
The titanium bike impresses me the most. It has seen a lot of crashes
and doesn't even have a dent.

The only downside I see with Ti-frames is that all of the ones I have
seen so far lack mounts for luggage racks and stuff. Something that even
the Gazelle steel frame of my road bike has. So you end up doing the
usual, making brackets. Well, nothing is perfect.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 3:14:11 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 13:21, wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 9:48:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 08:48, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote: :On 2016-12-29 17:28,
Doug Landau wrote: : I guess this is old news by now. : :
http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...le-tubing-line

:It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even
old :experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article at
the bottom of :your link:

:http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...n-fiber-frames



Tha'ts because they can't possibly compete with the chinese mass
prouced carbon frames. Steel is a nich product, and the labor
costs are lower.


Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design electronics
and every time a client transfers production to Asia the cost drops
to half or less. Including materials and all. The quality is
usually superb (I often get to check that). Overcoming such a large
difference is going to be a tall order. The cost of doing business
in the US is too high. How much that (hopefully) improves with the
new administration remains to be seen.

If I'd need a new bike it would have a titanium frame. Probably
from Bikesdirect.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In my experience Japanese and Taiwanese products are good. But
Taiwanese and Chinese products have very spotty quality control. Hell
even a non-stick saucepan has even butter sticking to it.


My MTB buddy has a lot of MTB. Two Specialized FS bikes, two fat bikes
from Bikesdirect and a titanium HT from Bikesdirect. The quality on all
of them is great, welds, geometric precision, build quality in general.
The titanium bike impresses me the most. It has seen a lot of crashes
and doesn't even have a dent.

The only downside I see with Ti-frames is that all of the ones I have
seen so far lack mounts for luggage racks and stuff. Something that even
the Gazelle steel frame of my road bike has. So you end up doing the
usual, making brackets. Well, nothing is perfect.

Titanium road bikes were notorious for splitting longitudinally at the welds. My Colnago BiTitan was one of those and since it was second hand Colnago laughed in my face.

One of the group members has a Litespeed and I warned him where to look and he gave me a ration of s. The VERY next week he didn't show up for the ride because his frake had split just where I told him to look. It was replaced but he has reservations now. Now as I say, these cracks were longitudinally along the tubes and probably weren't dangerous but would you like to be riding on a broken expensive frame when they have a lifetime guarantee for the original owner?

everything breaks.

super collection

however, as per the successful CF market....the images are of crash damage n heavy handed mechanicry. The split head tube is a gem. Several appear as hit with an ax

the bin looks like artwork. no where in the blip blip do we collect that many broken CF frames ? LA ?

you have the report....how many CF frames are there on the road in the US ?

On 2016-12-30 15:29, wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 3:14:11 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 13:21, wrote:
On Friday, December 30, 2016 at 9:48:18 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-12-30 08:48, David Scheidt wrote:
Joerg wrote: :On 2016-12-29
17:28, Doug Landau wrote: : I guess this is old news by now.
: :
http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...le-tubing-line



:It is unusual considering the renewed interest in steel. Even
old :experienced manufacturers say that, like in the article
at the bottom of :your link:

:http://www.handbuiltbicyclenews.com/...n-fiber-frames





Tha'ts because they can't possibly compete with the chinese mass
prouced carbon frames. Steel is a nich product, and the
labor costs are lower.


Probably. It's the same almost everywhere. I design
electronics and every time a client transfers production to
Asia the cost drops to half or less. Including materials and
all. The quality is usually superb (I often get to check that).
Overcoming such a large difference is going to be a tall order.
The cost of doing business in the US is too high. How much that
(hopefully) improves with the new administration remains to be
seen.

If I'd need a new bike it would have a titanium frame.
Probably from Bikesdirect.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

In my experience Japanese and Taiwanese products are good. But
Taiwanese and Chinese products have very spotty quality control.
Hell even a non-stick saucepan has even butter sticking to it.


My MTB buddy has a lot of MTB. Two Specialized FS bikes, two fat
bikes from Bikesdirect and a titanium HT from Bikesdirect. The
quality on all of them is great, welds, geometric precision, build
quality in general. The titanium bike impresses me the most. It has
seen a lot of crashes and doesn't even have a dent.

The only downside I see with Ti-frames is that all of the ones I
have seen so far lack mounts for luggage racks and stuff. Something
that even the Gazelle steel frame of my road bike has. So you end
up doing the usual, making brackets. Well, nothing is perfect.

Titanium road bikes were notorious for splitting longitudinally at
the welds. My Colnago BiTitan was one of those and since it was
second hand Colnago laughed in my face.

One of the group members has a Litespeed and I warned him where to
look and he gave me a ration of s. The VERY next week he didn't show
up for the ride because his frake had split just where I told him to
look. It was replaced but he has reservations now. Now as I say,
these cracks were longitudinally along the tubes and probably weren't
dangerous but would you like to be riding on a broken expensive frame
when they have a lifetime guarantee for the original owner?


Interesting, first time I hear of that issue. So that means our
grandparents knew best and we should go back to Reynolds 531?

I was very surprised when I saw the steel frame of my road bike being
offered at auctions for several hundred bucks. It is definitely not a
collectors bike. The only reason it gets many looks is that it is over
30years old.

Steel has one major advantage in that it can be welded/brazed without
super special equipment and skills. So frame mods are possible.
Something I truly wish I could do with my MTB but that's all hydroformed
aluminum.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/