Habanero shows up curved stays

On 3/31/2017 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:04:19 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote:
Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the
curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the
large curves ...


Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what
Andrew thought :-)


in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to
ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs
straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that
matter.


I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so
much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect.
Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are
equipped.

One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There
are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some
alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might
preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier
lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for
aerospace and sports.

One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and
label each of them, honestly, as Titanium.


Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect
that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So
their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't
surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a
reputation and then the business.

The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If
the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. And like other
materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend
Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It
finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to
allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS
steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne
was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a
factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti
alloys in use?

Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production
in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service.

It didn't appear used; it was a job lot of bikes that appeared to have
been in a bike shop that burned down- a bunch of 70s bikes, mostly
Italian. Some of them had some scorched paint, melted saddles and cable
housing, etc. Our guess was that it was an insurance salvage that had
been sitting forgotten in a warehouse for a decade or two. But yeah, he
got great service out of that bike.

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid
because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little
snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in
the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT
lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems
like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable
guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't
know fashion back then.

It seemed lke a weird solution at the time, too. Braze-ons for shift
levers, cable stops, etc., were well known by then and might have been
cheaper than the tube forming.

Was the tube actually necked down? Or was it a piece of smaller
diameter tube inserted into the larger down tube? The seat tube/top
tube junction is obviously some sort of sleeved joint and I could see
an advantage to welding a toptube/headtube sort of assemble if some
sort of inert atmosphere box was being used for welding.

I would add that when I certified on Titanium in 1972 the test tags
were welded in an inert atmosphere box.
--
Cheers,

John B.


reference image he
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA...e_Brochure.htm

Downtubes are swadged at two places. Seat cluster is
externally sleeved. Another weak point is the crown/column
joint. It's welded only on the bottom face.

Teledynes were welded as you remember in an oxygen-free
welding booth. Modern practice is an argon flow through/ out
of the tubes, no booth.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/31/2017 8:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/31/2017 5:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
We had French aluminum cable
bands (slip through slot, fold back) and Terry's clips
(some of which
were elegantly designed) but zipties hadn't made the leap
to bicycles.

What were (or are) the elegantly designed Terry clips? Is
that Georgena Terry of Terry Bicycles?


Terry's of England made a lot of cute chromed steel hardware
but the elegant steel top tube clip looped over the brake
casing, around the top tube and then back over the brake
casing and first end of the clip leaving no protruding
edges. Much cleaner than the usual sharp rusty 3mm screw
sticking out of other brands.

http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.as...6f708&Enum=103

We imported them in some large volume until one day there
weren't many bikes without brazed cable loops.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 6:24:56 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/31/2017 4:25 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then.

Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole
in a tube? ;-)

They would also need the advanced technology to build something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l

Whoa! That's outer space alien technology!

I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make things difficult. Why did it take so long to enlarge the caps on water bottles?

I think that in the olden days (e.g. the 1970s) there was a lot more
"design" done by just copying tradition. I suppose most of us here have
anticipated future products by saying "Why doesn't anybody make..."
about some perfectly obvious change. I assume component engineers had
some of the same thoughts, but decided (or were told) "This is the way
it's always been done."

I remember talking to my bike shop buddies in the 1970s, saying someone
should come out with special tooth profiles on rear cogs to make
shifting easier. Eventually Shimano came out with twisted teeth, then
teeth individually designed to aid the chain transfer between cogs.

I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing...

OK, I don't know about how spokes are supposed to radiate, whatever that
means. I've always made sure they were parallel aside the valve hole,
and I keep the pulling spokes to the inside of the rear hub. What else
is there?

So, if you build your rear wheel with the pulling spokes radiating from the inside of the flange, you have to have the same orientation on the front wheel with the hub label reading the right way when sitting on the bike. Since front wheels don't have pulling spokes, it doesn't matter whether the spokes from the inside of the flange go forward or backward -- unless you're anal. The good part is that all you do when building is pick up the hub, get the label reading the right way and put in a bunch of spokes from outside in, and you're done. Then, of course, you have to sight down the valve hole to make sure you can read the label, so you have to orient your first spoke accordingly.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 3:25:13 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

Gluing tires on a rim? Do you glue your car tires on the rim? Pffff.


Gluing tires, tubulars, do have very noticeable improvements over clinchers in some situations. Less weight being the most obvious. The ability to run the tires at lower pressure and not worry about pinch flats is another. Probably a few others too. Each has a purpose and place.


I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing -- although you probably couldn't read "Campagnolo" through the valve stem hole, which is the pinnacle of anal wheel building. If it were that big of a deal and I miss-oriented the hub, I suppose I could always drill a viewing hole. Look . . . Campagnolo! It's the best!

-- Jay Beattie.

I would probably take my Park pedal wrench and smash the head of someone who did not build a wheel with the hub logo below the valve stem. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing everything. Putting the hub logo below the valve stem is the right way. Do you take the same view with painting? With painting, as long as the surface is covered and protected from the elements, its good enough. Drips, puddles, slop in the paint is immaterial. As long as the substrate is covered with paint, its good.

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:24:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/31/2017 4:25 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then.

Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole
in a tube? ;-)

They would also need the advanced technology to build something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l

Whoa! That's outer space alien technology!

I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make things difficult. Why did it take so long to enlarge the caps on water bottles?

I think that in the olden days (e.g. the 1970s) there was a lot more
"design" done by just copying tradition. I suppose most of us here have
anticipated future products by saying "Why doesn't anybody make..."
about some perfectly obvious change. I assume component engineers had
some of the same thoughts, but decided (or were told) "This is the way
it's always been done."

I remember talking to my bike shop buddies in the 1970s, saying someone
should come out with special tooth profiles on rear cogs to make
shifting easier. Eventually Shimano came out with twisted teeth, then
teeth individually designed to aid the chain transfer between cogs.

I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing...

OK, I don't know about how spokes are supposed to radiate, whatever that
means. I've always made sure they were parallel aside the valve hole,
and I keep the pulling spokes to the inside of the rear hub. What else
is there?

I think a lot of it is "Well, it worked last time", or perhaps, "Well
it broke last time, I'll just make it a little bit bigger"

(actually that pretty well summarizes the history of the engineering
trade :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:50:45 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 3/31/2017 8:26 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:04:19 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:
On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote:
Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the
curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the
large curves ...


Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what
Andrew thought :-)


in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to
ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs
straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that
matter.


I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so
much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect.
Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are
equipped.

One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There
are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some
alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might
preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier
lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for
aerospace and sports.

One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and
label each of them, honestly, as Titanium.


Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect
that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So
their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't
surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a
reputation and then the business.

The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If
the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. And like other
materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend
Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It
finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to
allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS
steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne
was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a
factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti
alloys in use?

Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production
in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service.

It didn't appear used; it was a job lot of bikes that appeared to have
been in a bike shop that burned down- a bunch of 70s bikes, mostly
Italian. Some of them had some scorched paint, melted saddles and cable
housing, etc. Our guess was that it was an insurance salvage that had
been sitting forgotten in a warehouse for a decade or two. But yeah, he
got great service out of that bike.

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid
because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little
snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in
the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT
lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems
like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable
guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't
know fashion back then.

It seemed lke a weird solution at the time, too. Braze-ons for shift
levers, cable stops, etc., were well known by then and might have been
cheaper than the tube forming.

Was the tube actually necked down? Or was it a piece of smaller
diameter tube inserted into the larger down tube? The seat tube/top
tube junction is obviously some sort of sleeved joint and I could see
an advantage to welding a toptube/headtube sort of assemble if some
sort of inert atmosphere box was being used for welding.

I would add that when I certified on Titanium in 1972 the test tags
were welded in an inert atmosphere box.
--
Cheers,

John B.


reference image he
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA...e_Brochure.htm

Downtubes are swadged at two places. Seat cluster is
externally sleeved. Another weak point is the crown/column
joint. It's welded only on the bottom face.

Teledynes were welded as you remember in an oxygen-free
welding booth. Modern practice is an argon flow through/ out
of the tubes, no booth.

Not so modern :-) I remember Boeing doing a big mod on the B-52
heating and pressurization system, back in the late 1960's, and all
the miles of thin walled stainless ducting was welded using an
internal purge and a TIG torch with a slightly higher then necessary
Argon flow. Many of the welds had no color change at all.

You can weld magnesium the same way :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:39:22 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 6:24:56 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/31/2017 4:25 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then.

Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole
in a tube? ;-)

They would also need the advanced technology to build something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l

Whoa! That's outer space alien technology!

I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make things difficult. Why did it take so long to enlarge the caps on water bottles?

I think that in the olden days (e.g. the 1970s) there was a lot more
"design" done by just copying tradition. I suppose most of us here have
anticipated future products by saying "Why doesn't anybody make..."
about some perfectly obvious change. I assume component engineers had
some of the same thoughts, but decided (or were told) "This is the way
it's always been done."

I remember talking to my bike shop buddies in the 1970s, saying someone
should come out with special tooth profiles on rear cogs to make
shifting easier. Eventually Shimano came out with twisted teeth, then
teeth individually designed to aid the chain transfer between cogs.

I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing...

OK, I don't know about how spokes are supposed to radiate, whatever that
means. I've always made sure they were parallel aside the valve hole,
and I keep the pulling spokes to the inside of the rear hub. What else
is there?

So, if you build your rear wheel with the pulling spokes radiating from the inside of the flange, you have to have the same orientation on the front wheel with the hub label reading the right way when sitting on the bike. Since front wheels don't have pulling spokes, it doesn't matter whether the spokes from the inside of the flange go forward or backward -- unless you're anal. The good part is that all you do when building is pick up the hub, get the label reading the right way and put in a bunch of spokes from outside in, and you're done. Then, of course, you have to sight down the valve hole to make sure you can read the label, so you have to orient your first spoke accordingly.

-- Jay Beattie.

Does this mean that I can't build wheels with my shiny polished (no
decals) hubs any more?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/31/2017 9:51 PM, wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 3:25:13 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

Gluing tires on a rim? Do you glue your car tires on the rim? Pffff.


Gluing tires, tubulars, do have very noticeable improvements over clinchers in some situations. Less weight being the most obvious. The ability to run the tires at lower pressure and not worry about pinch flats is another. Probably a few others too. Each has a purpose and place.


I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing -- although you probably couldn't read "Campagnolo" through the valve stem hole, which is the pinnacle of anal wheel building. If it were that big of a deal and I miss-oriented the hub, I suppose I could always drill a viewing hole. Look . . . Campagnolo! It's the best!

-- Jay Beattie.

I would probably take my Park pedal wrench and smash the head of someone who did not build a wheel with the hub logo below the valve stem. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing everything. Putting the hub logo below the valve stem is the right way. Do you take the same view with painting? With painting, as long as the surface is covered and protected from the elements, its good enough. Drips, puddles, slop in the paint is immaterial. As long as the substrate is covered with paint, its good.


You should build your wheels the way you like but
brand-stamp orientation has nothing to do with wheel
quality, integrity or longevity.

I was once asked to comment on an ex-employee who "Can blab
forever about which way the labels go but can't build a
decent wheel."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2017-03-31 17:45, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote:
Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the
curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the large
curves ...


Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what Andrew
thought :-)


in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to
ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs
straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that matter.


I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so much
more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect. Those are
between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are equipped.

One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There are
a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some alloys and
grades are difficult to manufacture which might preclude the use as
thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier lists 11 different
grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for aerospace and sports.

One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and label
each of them, honestly, as Titanium.


Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect that
he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So their Titanium
seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't surprise me because
cheating there would very quickly destroy a reputation and then the
business.

Unless it is some sort of mythical Titanium a steel bike would have
been just as strong, and likely stronger.
4130 steel 560 0 675 MPa Titanium 344 MPa...


Sure. Now you know one reason why I cling to my 35-year old road bike
frame (Gazelle Trim Trophy). Good old Reynolds 531:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gazelle-Trim...-/182492626087

While spokes and all kinds of other stuff doesn't quite hold up that
frame never gave me a lick of a problem. Except for a shimmy around
32mph but one can live with that.

However, steel is way heavier. The Ti-MTB I was talking about is a real
featherweight. When lifting it out of the bed of a truck it almost pops
out of your hand.


I had a look at your Bikes Direct site and nowhere could I find a
reference to the specific Titanium alloy that their bikes are made
from. I would comment that after striping off the somewhat hysterical
sales pitch the bikes look surprisingly like those offered on Alibaba
at a noticeably cheaper price.


His Ti hardtail definitely is high class stuff. I have ridden it myself.
It almost feels like it ain't there yet it is very tough. I have also
see my buddy crash it in front of me where I thought "Now this is going
to bend it". It didn't.

What I think is that most of those frames end up coming from the same
huge factory somewhere in Taiwan or China and are largely assembled by
robots. Then some of them go to upscale companies where a huge profit
margin is tacked on, some to mass producers and some to places like
BikesDirect.

He's also got two fat bikes from them though those are aluminum frame.
We have ridden them together and they are also very sturdy. When
comparing the welds they looks identical on both bikes. I don't think
that is possible if done by hand.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, April 1, 2017 at 5:17:25 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/31/2017 9:51 PM, wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 3:25:13 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:

Gluing tires on a rim? Do you glue your car tires on the rim? Pffff.


Gluing tires, tubulars, do have very noticeable improvements over clinchers in some situations. Less weight being the most obvious. The ability to run the tires at lower pressure and not worry about pinch flats is another. Probably a few others too. Each has a purpose and place.


I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing -- although you probably couldn't read "Campagnolo" through the valve stem hole, which is the pinnacle of anal wheel building. If it were that big of a deal and I miss-oriented the hub, I suppose I could always drill a viewing hole. Look . . . Campagnolo! It's the best!

-- Jay Beattie.

I would probably take my Park pedal wrench and smash the head of someone who did not build a wheel with the hub logo below the valve stem. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing everything. Putting the hub logo below the valve stem is the right way. Do you take the same view with painting? With painting, as long as the surface is covered and protected from the elements, its good enough. Drips, puddles, slop in the paint is immaterial. As long as the substrate is covered with paint, its good.


You should build your wheels the way you like but
brand-stamp orientation has nothing to do with wheel
quality, integrity or longevity.

I was once asked to comment on an ex-employee who "Can blab
forever about which way the labels go but can't build a
decent wheel."

I don't know if Russel is kidding or not, but the aesthetic involved is not obvious. It's not like paint drips or a bad paint job -- or spokes crossing at the valve hole. Aligning a brand-stamp with a valve hole is something you have to hunt for -- and you'd be hunting a long time on my commuter bike. I haven't seen the hub brand-stamp on that bike for about six months. The bike is like a dirt clod with wheels. I just assume it has a chain because when I turn the crank, the wheels move. You have to be into dust-free cycling for brand-stamp orientation to make a difference. And what if someone is into a different aesthetic -- like the three-quarter-turn reversed brand-stamp aesthetic? It was very popular during late spring and summer of 1956 in Kenosha. In some cities, they file out the brand-stamp to avoid identification. Throw down hubs. In China . . .

-- Jay Beattie.