What would the Devil have driven?

Mr. Robert Hunt wrote:
On Jan 16, 9:36 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Bob Hunt wrote:

Hey, you've finally stated a position positively without weaselling!
Congratulations. It's a shame that your definition of fascism isn't
the widely accepted definition ("any movement, ideology, or attitude
that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private
enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism" or
"a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control and
extreme pride in country and race, and in which political opposition
is not allowed") or you might even have a point. The last I looked
there were no death squads roaming the streets. Based on your
definition, you seem to be alleging that we're living in an oligarchy,
not a fascist state. I disagree but I'll give you credit for at least
stating a position even if you did define your terms (fascism vs
oligarchy, "can" and "could" vs *do*) incorrectly.
That is the cleverness of the current system. Maintain the appearance of
a democracy, which fools enough of the people that the brutal
repression is not necessary. Since violent repression breeds resistance,
they US system is more beneficial to the ruling class, as it means they
are more likely to stay in power.

The token opposition of a few members of Congress helps the illusion of
democracy; but the numbers of such true representatives of the people
are kept too small to have any real influence.

The only real danger to the system would be if enough people figured
things out to vote real representatives from third parties into office;
but the population is kept ignorant and stupefied with entertainment
posing as news, sitcoms and "reality" televisions shows.


Q- What does the "cleverness of the system" have to do with you not
knowing the difference between fascism and an oligarchy?
A- None.
Conclusion- You're just a gasbag that likes to avoid direct answers
while pretending to think deep political thoughts. In reality your
critiques of political affairs are on the same level as the, "Two legs
good. Four legs bad", slogan from "Animal Farm". The pig was one up on
you though because unlike your pretentious posts barbecued pork
doesn't leave a bad aftertaste.

Mr. Hunt misses the de facto merger of government and corporations that
is essential to fascism, but not oligarchy.

Mr. Hunt then resorts to insults, since he has nothing better to contribute.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Mr. Robert Hunt wrote:
On Jan 19, 11:15 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Mr. Robert Hunt wrote:
On Jan 16, 9:36 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Bob Hunt wrote:
Hey, you've finally stated a position positively without weaselling!
Congratulations. It's a shame that your definition of fascism isn't
the widely accepted definition ("any movement, ideology, or attitude
that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private
enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism" or
"a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control and
extreme pride in country and race, and in which political opposition
is not allowed") or you might even have a point. The last I looked
there were no death squads roaming the streets. Based on your
definition, you seem to be alleging that we're living in an oligarchy,
not a fascist state. I disagree but I'll give you credit for at least
stating a position even if you did define your terms (fascism vs
oligarchy, "can" and "could" vs *do*) incorrectly.
That is the cleverness of the current system. Maintain the appearance of
a democracy, which fools enough of the people that the brutal
repression is not necessary. Since violent repression breeds resistance,
they US system is more beneficial to the ruling class, as it means they
are more likely to stay in power.
The token opposition of a few members of Congress helps the illusion of
democracy; but the numbers of such true representatives of the people
are kept too small to have any real influence.
The only real danger to the system would be if enough people figured
things out to vote real representatives from third parties into office;
but the population is kept ignorant and stupefied with entertainment
posing as news, sitcoms and "reality" televisions shows.
Q- What does the "cleverness of the system" have to do with you not
knowing the difference between fascism and an oligarchy?
A- None.
Conclusion- You're just a gasbag that likes to avoid direct answers
while pretending to think deep political thoughts. In reality your
critiques of political affairs are on the same level as the, "Two legs
good. Four legs bad", slogan from "Animal Farm". The pig was one up on
you though because unlike your pretentious posts barbecued pork
doesn't leave a bad aftertaste.
Mr. Hunt misses the de facto merger of government and corporations that
is essential to fascism, but not oligarchy.

Mr. Hunt then resorts to insults, since he has nothing better to contribute.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Will someone at Google fix this!!! Ignoring the signature separator and
"Hide quoted text" and "Show quoted text" in the reply. Sheesh!!!

The short definition of oligarchy is rule by the privileged few. The
short definition of fascism is a totalitarian form of government that
suppresses all dissent while fostering an extreme militaristic
national pride. You've argued here many times that real power in the
US is reserved to corporation fatcats and their lackeys. That would
fit the definition of oligarchy perfectly. OTOH, since you are still
posting here I think it is safe to assume that no government agents
have knocked down your door and dragged you off to the camps. The only
conclusions that can reasonably be drawn from that is that either the
totalitarian government you say exists is totally incompetent at
suppressing dissent or you are far too unimportant for them to bother
arresting or the totalitarian state doesn't exist.

Not everybody will fit in a concentration camp. Only those who mobilize
others to a point that threatens the establishment are disposed of,
whether in prisons (through false charges), mental institutions or
assassination (e.g. Martin Luther King Jr. - highly appropriate example
for today's posting).

As for my "resort(ing) to insults" I guess you don't consider your
implications upthread that I'm either- A) a liar or B) "less than half
attentive" to be insulting. Okay. I don't consider calling you a
pretentious gasbag insulting so I guess we're even because apparently
only the writer gets to define what is or is not an insult. Or is it
only an insult if the writer states their opinion clearly without
relying on implication and innuendo?
You may now have the last word and thus believe you have "won" the
argument. I'm comfortable letting others decide who, if anyone, has
"won".

----
The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
by Dr. Lawrence Britt

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany),
Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin
American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism -
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans,
symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are
flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights -
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in
fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain
cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even
approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations
of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause -
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to
eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious
minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military -
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a
disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda
is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism -
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively
male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made
more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homo-sexuality are suppressed and the
state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media -
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other
cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or
sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war
time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security -
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined -
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the
nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and
terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of
the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or
actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected -
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the
ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually
beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed -
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist
government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely
suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts -
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher
education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and
other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts
and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment -
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to
enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses
and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a
national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption -
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and
associates who appoint each other to government positions and
use governmental power and authority to protect their friends
from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national
resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by
government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections -
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times
elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even
assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control
voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of
the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries
to manipulate or control elections.
----
The US currently meets criteria numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 13 and
14 to near full extent, and numbers 10 to 12 to a partial extent.

Number 5 is in the agenda of many of the politicians and judges
currently in power.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth