New B&M Lights with Wide Beam and Daytime Mode Available

On 11/16/2013 6:44 AM, Clive George wrote:

Where you are isn't a flashing red rear tail light (could one have a
front tail light?) an identifying characteristic of a car signalling to
turn?

Sadly, no.
http://www.northernsun.com/images/imagelarge/Operate-Your-Turn-Signals-Bumper-Sticker-(7000).jpg

On 11/17/2013 4:09 PM, John B. wrote:

I'm not a bit sure that "daytime running lights" are necessary. I had
a lovely 4 hour ride in Bangkok traffic on Sunday. I got a late start
and thus forgot to turn on either a rear or front light. It seemed to
make no difference at all from my other rides with lights on.

It would be difficult to prove the effectiveness of daytime lights on
bicycles. You can extrapolate from the safety data on DRLs on motor
vehicles, you can look at the data regarding conspicuity of flashing
lights, and you can observe driver behavior. But that's not absolute
proof, it requires using common sense.

Certainly everyone that's tried them, at least in the U.S., has observed
the changes in driver behavior as a result. But by the same token you
can ride in a way where you just constantly yield to motor vehicles that
cut you off because you don't register in their consciousness. Maybe in
Thailand things are different.

On 11/17/2013 4:13 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Naw Frank. You just don't know how to make a survey.

Quite true.

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:09:23 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:

I'm not a bit sure that "daytime running lights" are necessary. I had
a lovely 4 hour ride in Bangkok traffic on Sunday. I got a late start
and thus forgot to turn on either a rear or front light. It seemed to
make no difference at all from my other rides with lights on.

And for those oppressed minority riders in the rich, dynamic, vibrant
nations, nobody tried to "right hook" (over here, left hook) me,
Nobody threatened to door me. Even at bus stops I had at least 3 ft.
of passing clearance. Not a single one of the disastrous event
occurred that I see mentioned so frequently here :-)

Sounds just like my riding. Wonder what we have in common. Perhaps it's competence?

- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:13:32 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/17/2013 4:55 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

Your point about legislation is valid. The market for high quality lamps was created by that German legislation we excoriate for other reasons, and by other nations for a long time following it de facto with the exception of not necessarily outlawing flashing lamps. If lamps of a certain standard were compulsory on bicycles in the States, lamps of that standard would become available, and be developed to be both cheap and relatively good, because there would be a market. Until then... As I say, the States is an irrelevance, if one that the lamp manufacturers eye hungrily because a goodly number of bikes are sold there. The best legislation would be on the German pattern, requiring lamps to be fitted as OEM equipment before a bike is sold.

There are many legally required vehicle safety features that the auto
manufacturers moaned about, but they drove the cost down and since every
manufacturer had to comply no one was at a competitive disadvantage.
Safety glass, seat belts, collapsible steering columns, padded dash
boards, air bags, TPMS, and VSC come to mind.

I don't like the idea of passing more laws to make everything safe for
everyone but by the same token unless bicycles are manufactured to a
standard that encourages their use as a vehicle alternative there's
little chance of getting people to consider bicycling as a commute
method. I actually like the motive behind what Germany has done in terms
of required equipment, they just haven't kept up.

You've got a long way to go. the current (government furnished data)
seems to show less than 1% of the people commuting are using bicycles.
And using published figures, during the last 20 years sales in
relationship to population have slid. In 2005 approximately 1 in 21
people bought a bicycle. In 2012 the number was 1 in 24. The high
point was eight years ago and it has been pretty much down hill ever
since.

--
Cheers,

John B.

rOn Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:19:52 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/17/2013 4:09 PM, John B. wrote:

I'm not a bit sure that "daytime running lights" are necessary. I had
a lovely 4 hour ride in Bangkok traffic on Sunday. I got a late start
and thus forgot to turn on either a rear or front light. It seemed to
make no difference at all from my other rides with lights on.

It would be difficult to prove the effectiveness of daytime lights on
bicycles. You can extrapolate from the safety data on DRLs on motor
vehicles, you can look at the data regarding conspicuity of flashing
lights, and you can observe driver behavior. But that's not absolute
proof, it requires using common sense.

You are going to relate bicycle accidents to motor vehicle accidents?
That is rather stretching for data isn't it?

Certainly everyone that's tried them, at least in the U.S., has observed
the changes in driver behavior as a result. But by the same token you
can ride in a way where you just constantly yield to motor vehicles that
cut you off because you don't register in their consciousness. Maybe in
Thailand things are different.

I can only assume that the U.S. must be filled with very horrible
people. "Over here" include Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and
Indonesia as I've been in them all, I have honestly never noticed any
difference in drivers, whether I had flashing lights or not.

Last Sunday I, of course, encountered a number of people who were
entering the highway from a smaller road on the left (USians think
Right) and do you know, every one, rather than bull out either right
in front of me or even at me, waited a bit, several even motioned me
by.

It doesn't sound like the same world that y'all seem to inhabit.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 19:43:14 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:09:23 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:

I'm not a bit sure that "daytime running lights" are necessary. I had
a lovely 4 hour ride in Bangkok traffic on Sunday. I got a late start
and thus forgot to turn on either a rear or front light. It seemed to
make no difference at all from my other rides with lights on.

And for those oppressed minority riders in the rich, dynamic, vibrant
nations, nobody tried to "right hook" (over here, left hook) me,
Nobody threatened to door me. Even at bus stops I had at least 3 ft.
of passing clearance. Not a single one of the disastrous event
occurred that I see mentioned so frequently here :-)

Sounds just like my riding. Wonder what we have in common. Perhaps it's competence?

- Frank Krygowski

No Frank, it is more likely that we are mature individuals and
approach tasks with a calm, can do, attitude, and as a result we have
far less of the "bad luck" that seems to plague some.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 13:07:03 +0700, John B.
wrote:

rOn Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:19:52 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/17/2013 4:09 PM, John B. wrote:

I'm not a bit sure that "daytime running lights" are necessary. I had
a lovely 4 hour ride in Bangkok traffic on Sunday. I got a late start
and thus forgot to turn on either a rear or front light. It seemed to
make no difference at all from my other rides with lights on.

It would be difficult to prove the effectiveness of daytime lights on
bicycles. You can extrapolate from the safety data on DRLs on motor
vehicles, you can look at the data regarding conspicuity of flashing
lights, and you can observe driver behavior. But that's not absolute
proof, it requires using common sense.

You are going to relate bicycle accidents to motor vehicle accidents?
That is rather stretching for data isn't it?

Certainly everyone that's tried them, at least in the U.S., has observed
the changes in driver behavior as a result. But by the same token you
can ride in a way where you just constantly yield to motor vehicles that
cut you off because you don't register in their consciousness. Maybe in
Thailand things are different.

I can only assume that the U.S. must be filled with very horrible
people. "Over here" include Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and
Indonesia as I've been in them all, I have honestly never noticed any
difference in drivers, whether I had flashing lights or not.

Should have read "Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand".

Last Sunday I, of course, encountered a number of people who were
entering the highway from a smaller road on the left (USians think
Right) and do you know, every one, rather than bull out either right
in front of me or even at me, waited a bit, several even motioned me
by.

It doesn't sound like the same world that y'all seem to inhabit.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/17/2013 09:13 PM, sms wrote:
On 11/17/2013 4:55 PM, Andre Jute wrote:

Your point about legislation is valid. The market for high quality
lamps was created by that German legislation we excoriate for other
reasons, and by other nations for a long time following it de facto
with the exception of not necessarily outlawing flashing lamps. If
lamps of a certain standard were compulsory on bicycles in the States,
lamps of that standard would become available, and be developed to be
both cheap and relatively good, because there would be a market. Until
then... As I say, the States is an irrelevance, if one that the lamp
manufacturers eye hungrily because a goodly number of bikes are sold
there. The best legislation would be on the German pattern, requiring
lamps to be fitted as OEM equipment before a bike is sold.

There are many legally required vehicle safety features that the auto
manufacturers moaned about, but they drove the cost down and since every
manufacturer had to comply no one was at a competitive disadvantage.
Safety glass, seat belts, collapsible steering columns, padded dash
boards, air bags, TPMS, and VSC come to mind.

I don't like the idea of passing more laws to make everything safe for
everyone but by the same token unless bicycles are manufactured to a
standard that encourages their use as a vehicle alternative there's
little chance of getting people to consider bicycling as a commute
method. I actually like the motive behind what Germany has done in terms
of required equipment, they just haven't kept up.



How can you say that (with which I agree, by the way) when you discard
out of hand properly shaped beams which is probably the single most
important thing that the StVZO regs have given us?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 01:08:39 +0000, Phil W Lee
wrote:

Frank Krygowski considered Sun, 17 Nov 2013
12:36:17 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 12:28:30 PM UTC-5, Phil W Lee wrote:
sms considered Thu, 14 Nov 2013 14:04:52

A flashing light is what you want for daytime use as a daytime running
light. It's very similar to what motorcycles do with modulated front
lights in the daytime.

You mean those almost non-existent ones, that at least 99% of
motorcyclists don't use?

To prove I'm not writing out of bias, I must report seeing another motorcycle with a modulated headlight about three weeks ago.

That makes two of them this year. And while I haven't kept count of the motorcycles I've seen _without_ modulated headlights, I suspect the number is _well_ over 1000. It may approach 10,000.

- Frank Krygowski

I've never seen one ever, anywhere.
And that should be taken in the context that I've worked as a
motorcycle courier (which essentially means I've worn out motorcycles
for a living), marshaled for the Isle of Man TT, the North-West 200,
and racing circuits all over the UK, been a motorcycle training
instructor, and taken part in motorcycle rallies where attendance was
numbered in 5 figures.
I once tried to work out what my lifetime motorcycle mileage was, and
concluded that although it was certainly in 7 figures, I couldn't be
sure by how much.

And in all that exposure to motorcycling, I have never seen a single
modulated headlight. Ever.

Well, I live in Thailand and here there are 1.6 motorcycles for every
car on the road..... and In all the years I've been here I've never
seen a motorcycle with a modulated headlight :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.