Truing Stand

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:45:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:01:37 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.
I was originally shown by a bike builder in Hayward. In those day wheels were 36 and/or 32 spokes. The idea of the weaving was to keep the spokes from pinging against one another if they were done that way. Once you got the hang of it you didn't even have to look at it. You would cut the spokes the proper length and then tighten the nipples up to three threads from tight and then take a half turn on every spoke until you have them as tight as they would go, which wasn't very tight on a 36 spoke wheel. If you had a hop in the wheel you did something wrong.

You must be remarkably big if you need anything more than 36 spoke wheels..

Cut the spokes? WTF? Did you have a Phil spoke thread roller?

-- Jay Beattie.

On 6/6/2021 7:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:45:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:01:37 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.
I was originally shown by a bike builder in Hayward. In those day wheels were 36 and/or 32 spokes. The idea of the weaving was to keep the spokes from pinging against one another if they were done that way. Once you got the hang of it you didn't even have to look at it. You would cut the spokes the proper length and then tighten the nipples up to three threads from tight and then take a half turn on every spoke until you have them as tight as they would go, which wasn't very tight on a 36 spoke wheel. If you had a hop in the wheel you did something wrong.

You must be remarkably big if you need anything more than 36 spoke wheels.

Cut the spokes? WTF? Did you have a Phil spoke thread roller?

I think it's that "memory" at work again.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2021 6:01 PM, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers).Â* The
result is the same.Â* Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.

This was very early in my adult cycling career, about three years after
I began riding avidly. The circumstances were unusual.

I was working in a small city that had a very unusual salvage store.
Much of the goods spread out on half an acre of tables was salvage stuff
lost or damaged by UPS, then sold very cheaply. Occasionally something
really nice appeared, such as a custom Reynolds 531 frame (by Lippy)
with a slight dent. That cost me $7, and is now the frame of my
about-town three speed. The find pertinent to this story was a
Campagnolo front hub, found just before we were to leave for our first
overseas tour in England and Scotland.

Being relatively poor at the time, we drove rather than flew the
hundreds of miles to Kennedy Airport. And being a nice guy very much in
love, I decided to give the hub to my wife, to replace the Normandy hub
in her front wheel. Our local bike shop sold me the proper spokes.

I knew how to true wheels (the junk wheels on my first "ten speed" had
taught me all about that) but not how to build them. I didn't have a
book. During the long drive, I just took my time and copied the lacing
scheme on my Raleigh Super Course. It worked fine.

Coincidentally, yesterday I saw that bike of hers for the first time in
many years. It had been passed on and passed on again, but yesterday we
happened to visit the current owner. The wheel is still just fine.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2021 6:01 PM, pH wrote:


Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

P.S. It was many years later that I bought Jobst's book.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:04:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 6:01 PM, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.
This was very early in my adult cycling career, about three years after
I began riding avidly. The circumstances were unusual.

I was working in a small city that had a very unusual salvage store.
Much of the goods spread out on half an acre of tables was salvage stuff
lost or damaged by UPS, then sold very cheaply. Occasionally something
really nice appeared, such as a custom Reynolds 531 frame (by Lippy)
with a slight dent. That cost me $7, and is now the frame of my
about-town three speed. The find pertinent to this story was a
Campagnolo front hub, found just before we were to leave for our first
overseas tour in England and Scotland.

Being relatively poor at the time, we drove rather than flew the
hundreds of miles to Kennedy Airport. And being a nice guy very much in
love, I decided to give the hub to my wife, to replace the Normandy hub
in her front wheel. Our local bike shop sold me the proper spokes.

I knew how to true wheels (the junk wheels on my first "ten speed" had
taught me all about that) but not how to build them. I didn't have a
book. During the long drive, I just took my time and copied the lacing
scheme on my Raleigh Super Course. It worked fine.

Coincidentally, yesterday I saw that bike of hers for the first time in
many years. It had been passed on and passed on again, but yesterday we
happened to visit the current owner. The wheel is still just fine.

It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52 or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and the Wright pamphlet and later Jobst's book (which I bought at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release), practically all my cohorts built wheels -- and we all hung out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who ran twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components and lived and breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a friend), so that's the direction I went after probably '75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs Anyway, wheel building was a thing back then -- as it was on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a box. Things change.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 19:08:12 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 6:04:16 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 6:01 PM, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.
This was very early in my adult cycling career, about three years after
I began riding avidly. The circumstances were unusual.

I was working in a small city that had a very unusual salvage store.
Much of the goods spread out on half an acre of tables was salvage stuff
lost or damaged by UPS, then sold very cheaply. Occasionally something
really nice appeared, such as a custom Reynolds 531 frame (by Lippy)
with a slight dent. That cost me $7, and is now the frame of my
about-town three speed. The find pertinent to this story was a
Campagnolo front hub, found just before we were to leave for our first
overseas tour in England and Scotland.

Being relatively poor at the time, we drove rather than flew the
hundreds of miles to Kennedy Airport. And being a nice guy very much in
love, I decided to give the hub to my wife, to replace the Normandy hub
in her front wheel. Our local bike shop sold me the proper spokes.

I knew how to true wheels (the junk wheels on my first "ten speed" had
taught me all about that) but not how to build them. I didn't have a
book. During the long drive, I just took my time and copied the lacing
scheme on my Raleigh Super Course. It worked fine.

Coincidentally, yesterday I saw that bike of hers for the first time in
many years. It had been passed on and passed on again, but yesterday we
happened to visit the current owner. The wheel is still just fine.

It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52 or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and the rWright pamphlet and later Jobst's book (which I bought at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release), practically all my cohorts built wheels -- and we all hung out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who ran twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components and lived and breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a friend), so that's the direction I went after probably '75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs Anyway, wheel building was a thing back then -- as it was on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a box. Things change.

-- Jay Beattie.

Some years ago I asked the wife of, probably, the largest importer of
bike components in Thailand, "Why no hubs, no spokes, no rims?" She
replied, "No demand."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 6/6/2021 10:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52 or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and the Wright pamphlet and later Jobst's book (which I bought at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release), practically all my cohorts built wheels -- and we all hung out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who ran twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components and lived and breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a friend), so that's the direction I went after probably '75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs Anyway, wheel building was a thing back then -- as it was on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a box. Things change.

And I'll bet that "wheels in a box" came about largely due to the
development of automated wheel building machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EITEQLn8SUE

Thank God for engineers!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/7/2021 9:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 10:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52
or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and
the Wright pamphlet and later Jobst's book (which I bought
at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release),
practically all my cohorts built wheels -- and we all hung
out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who ran
twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked
for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components and lived and
breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a
friend), so that's the direction I went after probably
'75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs
Anyway, wheel building was a thing back then -- as it was
on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a
box. Things change.

And I'll bet that "wheels in a box" came about largely due
to the development of automated wheel building machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EITEQLn8SUE

Thank God for engineers!



Which is fine so far as it goes. For doing exactly the same
thing in large numbers of iterations, the engineer or
operator can adjust for reasonable tension, runout and time.

For one-only jobs that will never make any sense compared to
a human. This is seen as well in chicken disassembly and AI
auto piloting, among other things. With chaotic inputs,
humans can be better. With standard inputs often robots
excel over us.

If you want to pause for some deep thoughts, go look at
Turkey's autonomous AI flying killer robots. They are
performing very (frighteningly?) well against Russian built
armor in Syria and Libya.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:38:58 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/7/2021 9:29 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/6/2021 10:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:

It was hard to screw-up 120mm/36 spoke wheels on SC Mod 52
or other robust rims of the era.

Apart from instruction from a friend and shop owner and
the Wright pamphlet and later Jobst's book (which I bought
at Cupertino Bike Shop immediately after its release),
practically all my cohorts built wheels -- and we all hung
out at the same shop owned by Mr. Wheel Guru, who ran
twice-weekly shop rides (races) -- and half of them worked
for brand-new Specialized Bicycle Components and lived and
breathed bike stuff. I knew Phil Wood (his son was a
friend), so that's the direction I went after probably
'75/6, although I had some racing wheels with Campy hubs
Anyway, wheel building was a thing back then -- as it was
on this NG during Jobst's tenure. Now is wheels in a
box. Things change.

And I'll bet that "wheels in a box" came about largely due
to the development of automated wheel building machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EITEQLn8SUE

Thank God for engineers!


Which is fine so far as it goes. For doing exactly the same
thing in large numbers of iterations, the engineer or
operator can adjust for reasonable tension, runout and time.

For one-only jobs that will never make any sense compared to
a human. This is seen as well in chicken disassembly and AI
auto piloting, among other things. With chaotic inputs,
humans can be better. With standard inputs often robots
excel over us.

If you want to pause for some deep thoughts, go look at
Turkey's autonomous AI flying killer robots. They are
performing very (frighteningly?) well against Russian built
armor in Syria and Libya.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tstt...nel=Movieclips

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2021-06-06, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 3:01:37 PM UTC-7, pH wrote:
On 2021-06-04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2021 8:17 PM, AMuzi wrote:

BTW I do most truing 'in the bike'. I only occasionally build wheels now
(when employees are 'too good' for some jobs and some customers). The
result is the same. Although a stand with good lighting can be more
convenient it's not essential.

I built my first wheel riding in a VW van during the long drive to the
airport for our first overseas bike tour. I used the inverted bike frame
as the truing stand.

Those were the days!

Did you use Jobst's book to do the lacing, Robert Wright's "Wright-built"
technique or are you just a super-genius who figured it out on his own?

I got loand the 'wright built' pamphlet by a coworker and used it to do the
lacing on my rims. I never used Jobst's published technique, but it look
like his way would have avoided the spoke weaving I had to do for the last
course of spokes.

The tensioning process was always tough...getting the 'hop' out.

I always took care to turn each nipple the same amount before tension began
being appreciable, but, still....

I ended up with a good result but I sure don't feel like natural.

How many spokes were your wheels? As a Clydesdale I do 40 in front and 48
in back.

I was originally shown by a bike builder in Hayward. In those day wheels were 36
and/or 32 spokes. The idea of the weaving was to keep the spokes from pinging against one another if
they were done that way. Once you got the hang of it you didn't even have to look at it. You
would cut the spokes the proper length and then tighten the nipples up to three threads from tight
and then take a half turn on every spoke until you have them as tight as they would go, which wasn't
very tight on a 36 spoke wheel. If you had a hop in the wheel you did something wrong.

You must be remarkably big if you need anything more than 36 spoke wheels.

Well...maybe just overly cautious. I don't recall breaking spokes for a
long long time and never on wheels I've built myself.

When wife and I were touring her Centurion was 36/40 spoke count. I think
the model was a Pro-Tour. This was also in the era of 27" tires (as God
intended.)

(I read my posts that appear and am aghast at the typos and incomplete
sentences that I let get through....jeez.)

pH