What makes a bicycle-safe drive-up window?

A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
vague to be meaningful or enforceable.

So what might be specifics?

Here's what I thought of:

Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.

Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.

Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.

Anybody got any other ideas?

- Frank Krygowski

aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
vague to be meaningful or enforceable.

So what might be specifics?

Here's what I thought of:

Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.

Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.

Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.

Anybody got any other ideas?

Require businesses that serve the public to allow cyclists to bring
their bicycles inside.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

On Feb 5, 7:54*pm, wrote:
A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. *A person who's pushing for
that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
vague to be meaningful or enforceable.

So what might be specifics?

[snip]

Dear Frank,

One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.

See the very bottom of this summary of Maine bicycle laws:

"In addition these operational laws, [LD1808] provides in Title 14:
COURT PROCEDURE -- CIVIL, §159-D, that businesses operating drive-up
windows, such as banks, restaurants, pharamacies, ATMs, etc. are
extended a liablity waiver for bicyclists using the drive-up window,
so that they may allow cyclists use of the window at the cyclist's own
risk."

http://bike.meetup.com/132/pages/Sum...e_Bicycle_Laws

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article
,
wrote:

A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
vague to be meaningful or enforceable.

So what might be specifics?

Beware of unintended consequences.

Here's what I thought of:

Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.

Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.

Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

In my opinion, you may be overthinking this. Most cyclists are capable
of negotiating normal road conditions, which they will encounter on the
way to the drive-in regardless (that certainly goes for a snowy road).

Further, most businesses are motivated not to create dangerous
conditions for their patrons (lawsuits, dontcha know). Most drive-up
windows serve motorcyclists already, and almost everything that's a
hazard to a motorcycle is a hazard to a bicycle.

Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.

Anybody got any other ideas?

I'd start by finding out what safety concerns (presumably driven by
specific insurance requirements) lead drive-up windows to outlaw
bicycles in the first place.

My caution about unintended consequences was that it's entirely possible
that if you set the bar for bicycle accommodation too high, businesses
will regard the entire affair as much too much trouble and pull some
unexpected move like banning bicycles from their property altogether.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Feb 5, 9:23*pm, wrote:

One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.

I'm trying to think of a situation where MVD'ers would be more PO'd
than waiting behind a cyclist using a DUW.

Maybe Critical Mass. But that's about it.

So, the "at their own risk" would have to not disallow penalties for
being run over from behind on purpose.

But this isn't _really_ about safety:

"This here drive-up is for CARS!!!" If you know what I mean...

--D-y

In article
,
" wrote:

On Feb 5, 9:23*pm, wrote:

One solution is to extend a liability waiver to businesses that allow
bicyclists to use drive-up windows at their own risk.

I'm trying to think of a situation where MVD'ers would be more PO'd
than waiting behind a cyclist using a DUW.

Maybe Critical Mass. But that's about it.

So, the "at their own risk" would have to not disallow penalties for
being run over from behind on purpose.

The waiver absolves the business, not other drivers. And it's a good
idea.

But this isn't _really_ about safety:

"This here drive-up is for CARS!!!" If you know what I mean...

More than anything, the issue probably involves The Unknown, and
Therefore Uninsurable. Carl's pointer to a waiver is probably the best
solution, just as similar waivers have made private-property owners
amenable to trails crossing their land.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 18:54:19 -0800 (PST), may have
said:

A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
vague to be meaningful or enforceable.

So what might be specifics?

Here's what I thought of:

Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.

Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.

Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.

Anybody got any other ideas?

Prohibit blind corners that keep a car or SUV driver from seeing the
bike that's just ahead of them. Too many cage jockeys pull away from
the order spot with their attention on something other than what's in
front of them, and if their line of sight was obscured just enough to
keep thm from seeing the bike that was next ahead of them, they will
blithely run right into it.



--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 04:30:50 GMT, Ryan Cousineau
may have said:

I'd start by finding out what safety concerns (presumably driven by
specific insurance requirements) lead drive-up windows to outlaw
bicycles in the first place.

I have heard a rumor that one burger chain banned bikes in the DT lane
after getting units held up by armed pedallers twice, but that may be
apocryphal. (Bikes not having a tag to be recorded by the security
cam, they might be leery of a late-night cyclist.)

IMO, the biggest hazard in the DT lane is the idjit in the Suburban
behind you who's fishing in his pockets for his wallet while yakking
on the cell phone as he pulls forward in the lane. You're in a
no-escape location while waiting in that lane, and if the attention of
the fool behind you lapses, it could get ugly in a hurry.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

wrote:
A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
vague to be meaningful or enforceable.

So what might be specifics?

Here's what I thought of:

Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.

Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.

Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.

Anybody got any other ideas?

- Frank Krygowski

Gee. Are you building a mountain? I use bank drive-thrus on my bike all
the time, but I don't eat much pseudo food, so my experiences are
limited. I've never had anyone give me a hard time at a drive-thru.

I would think that a business that kept the place safe for autos would
be sufficient. The property owners don't want negligence lawsuits.
Smooth metal would be unsafe for autos as well as bikes. I'm used to
dealing with poorly maintained roads that may have large cracks and
other longitudinal issues. Grates with holes large enough for a tire to
drop in should be banned city wide, not just at drive-thrus.

As far as detectors, wouldn't a door bell buzzer work as well? Automatic
detectors often seem to fail even for cars and I often wish, while
driving my car, that there was some manual way to let the light know I
am there.

On Feb 6, 10:22 am, Eric Vey wrote:
wrote:
A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. ...

For those who think the entire idea is silly, let me give a bit more
context.

The situation is a company wanting a zoning variance, asking (among
other things) to install a drive-up window where it would normally be
prohibited.

A dedicated cyclist on the zoning board sees this as leverage, a way
to make sure that cyclists get access to this window. (We've all
heard of cases where cyclists have been denied access to such
windows.) He proposed that one condition for approving the variance
would be that cyclists be given safe access.

Another member of the board thought that "safe" access would be too
vague - that the board should spell out at least some specific
conditions.

He could, I suppose, say "Oh, you know... it's just got to be safe."
But since he was asked for specifics, I'm trying to help him.

BTW, there certainly are conditions that are safe for cars but unsafe
for bikes. Longitudinal slots for drain grates are one. A smooth,
wet, narrow metal strip (like a bridge expansion joint or train track)
on a curve is another. I once dropped a motorcycle in a 3 mph turn on
a wet railroad track.

Also: I like Carl's idea of a liability waiver in many situations;
but it may be less useful in this situation, where the company is
already begging the community for permission. Also, while IANAL, I'd
be a bit worried about companies using a liability waiver to neglect
elementary safety concerns.

- Frank Krygowski