Tin plated wire for binding spokes

On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:08:56 -0600, A Muzi wrote:


You can't readily solder to stainless without silver

Nonsense. Clean the surface well, use a phosphoric-acid flux, and a solder
with a tin content over 50%.

On 7 Mar, 22:31, A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:

If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the spoke to
eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the spokes. *This
movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in a laced(woven)
wheel. *I am doing it for 'functional improvement', not asthetics. *It
also simplifies and speeds the swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if you
prefer that (tedious) process.

Testing for cosmetic ties will show little, if any gains in structure
stiffness. Ties which have bonded at two crossings with steel binding
do raise the operational rigidity of the hub/spoke/rim assembly.

Other testing, such as using fine copper wire on one crossing point
without adhesion to the spokes, which are bowed anyway, is not
relevant to my construction. The test should include a radial load
along with a lteral load and/or torsional load, just like during
operation.

On 7 Mar, 22:37, _ wrote:
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 15:08:56 -0600, A Muzi wrote:
You can't readily solder to stainless without silver

Nonsense. *Clean the surface well, use a phosphoric-acid flux, and a solder
with a tin content over 50%.

Would this work on chrome?

TJ

Izzat like binding feet?

In article
,
Nick L Plate wrote:

On 7 Mar, 22:31, A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:

If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the
spoke to eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the
spokes. *This movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in
a laced(woven) wheel. *I am doing it for 'functional
improvement', not asthetics. *It also simplifies and speeds the
swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if
you prefer that (tedious) process.

Testing for cosmetic ties will show little, if any gains in structure
stiffness. Ties which have bonded at two crossings with steel
binding do raise the operational rigidity of the hub/spoke/rim
assembly.

Starting to fudge already? That didn't take long, Trevor.

What's the tensile strength of the solder you are advocating? How much
movement do you think there is at the spoke junction under normal use?

Other testing, such as using fine copper wire on one crossing point
without adhesion to the spokes, which are bowed anyway, is not
relevant to my construction. The test should include a radial load
along with a lteral load and/or torsional load, just like during
operation.

The torsional load is transmitted along the spokes' axes, to that's a
red herring. Vertical loads are transmitted the same way, so that's
another red herring. Lateral loads are small to none unless you're
skidding sideways or performing some kind of cycle gymnastic (e.g,
sprinting like Abdu).

http://dndnl.com/WordPress/wp-conten...ujaparovstyrt1
..jpg

On 8 Mar, 00:33, Tim McNamara wrote: in his
recipe for today
In article
,
*Nick L Plate wrote:



On 7 Mar, 22:31, A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:

If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the
spoke to eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the
spokes. *This movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in
a laced(woven) wheel. *I am doing it for 'functional
improvement', not asthetics. *It also simplifies and speeds the
swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if
you prefer that (tedious) process.

Testing for cosmetic ties will show little, if any gains in structure
stiffness. *Ties which have bonded at two crossings with steel
binding do raise the operational rigidity of the hub/spoke/rim
assembly.

Starting to fudge already? *That didn't take long, Trevor.

Sugar and cream.


What's the tensile strength of the solder you are advocating? *How much
movement do you think there is at the spoke junction under normal use?

There is no tensile strength for solder. There is joint strength.
Enough movement to make it worthwile to reduce.

Other testing, such as using fine copper wire on one crossing point
without adhesion to the spokes, which are bowed anyway, is not
relevant to my construction. * The test should include a radial load
along with a lteral load and/or torsional load, just like during
operation.

The torsional load is transmitted along the spokes' axes, to that's a
red herring. *Vertical loads are transmitted the same way, so that's
another red herring. *Lateral loads are small to none unless you're
skidding sideways or performing some kind of cycle gymnastic (e.g,
sprinting like Abdu).

http://dndnl.com/WordPress/wp-conten...ujaparovstyrt1
.jpg

I refer bucklings to red herrings, with some plum sauce.
TJ

A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. Also copper plated wire.

A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the
wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away.

no, pull the wire so it snaps /before/ soldering. clean, tight, works
perfectly.



This is not to advocate the technique, but only to clarify that the
solder should not adhere to the spoke itself.

yes it should.


You can't readily solder
to stainless without silver (which is much hotter than lead solder) and
at any rate heating the spoke itself enough to wet with lead is also
more heat than is needed.

not true. use acid plumber flux. wash with bicarbonate after.



We use plain steel mechanic's wire, not tinned material. Finished wraps
get washed to remove any flux residue.

if you used the right flux, you could use the right wire!



Although not a functional improvement to a wheel, some riders prefer the
look, especially on period restorations. What's a Spence Wolf Cinelli
without tied spokes?

A Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. Also copper plated wire.

A Muzi wrote:
A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the
wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away.
This is not to advocate the technique, but only to clarify that the
solder should not adhere to the spoke itself. You can't readily solder
to stainless without silver (which is much hotter than lead solder) and
at any rate heating the spoke itself enough to wet with lead is also
more heat than is needed.
We use plain steel mechanic's wire, not tinned material. Finished wraps
get washed to remove any flux residue.
Although not a functional improvement to a wheel, some riders prefer the
look, especially on period restorations. What's a Spence Wolf Cinelli
without tied spokes?

Nick L Plate wrote:
If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the spoke to
eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the spokes. This
movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in a laced(woven)
wheel. I am doing it for 'functional improvement', not asthetics. It
also simplifies and speeds the swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if you
prefer that (tedious) process.

while i haven't gotten around to testing myself, jobst's "testing" is
materially flawed. in scientific method, the procedure is:
1. objective,
2. method,
3. results,
4. conclusion.

jobst.BIGBOY.brandt only does three of those four, omitting results.
this is called "fudging". anybody that relies on mere opinion as fact
like this is either gullible or they don't understand.

"jim beam" wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
On 7 Mar, 19:19, jim beam wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. �For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. �Also copper plated wire.
TJ
as long as the solder wets the spoke and the binding wire, it doesn't
really matter. �since it's easy to solder to stainless if you use the
right flux, you may as well also use a stainless binding wire and
stainless spokes.

NEVER use chrome spokes - the plating cracks and initiates fatigue -
very short lived.

I have used chrome spokes (not soldered) without succumbing to
fatigue. Do you mean there is a problem after soldering?
TJ

no, i mean that as you bend them to lace the wheel, the brittle chrome
plate which is not as elastic as its substrate, cracks. each crack is
an initiation point for fatigue.

Why is this a problem for spokes, but not for rims?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

Andrew Muzi wrote:
Nick L Plate wrote:
Is the bond created using tin plated steel wire and tinmans solder
more resilient than that made with zinc plated wire. For use on zinc
plated, chrome or stainless spokes. Also copper plated wire.

A Muzi wrote:
A small area of solder after the ties are wrapped is simply to keep the
wire from unwinding. After soldering, the excess wire is snipped away.
This is not to advocate the technique, but only to clarify that the
solder should not adhere to the spoke itself. You can't readily solder
to stainless without silver (which is much hotter than lead solder) and
at any rate heating the spoke itself enough to wet with lead is also
more heat than is needed.
We use plain steel mechanic's wire, not tinned material. Finished wraps
get washed to remove any flux residue.
Although not a functional improvement to a wheel, some riders prefer the
look, especially on period restorations. What's a Spence Wolf Cinelli
without tied spokes?

Nick L Plate wrote:
If there is no metallurgical bonding you cannot expect a gain in
lateral and torsional stiffness. The solder must bond to the spoke to
eliminate the relative longitudinal movement between the spokes. This
movement is evident in the wear at the crossing in a laced(woven)
wheel. I am doing it for 'functional improvement', not asthetics. It
also simplifies and speeds the swapping of a rim.

Other testing could find no such effect but, as I said, no harm if you
prefer that (tedious) process.

Magical things happen on Trevor's bicycles.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll