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OT - Obama



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 7th 10, 10:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default OT - Obama

Edward Dolan wrote:
"Peter Cole" wrote in message
...
AMuzi wrote:
-snip-
Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
"Islamic terrorism" is an oxymoron, since Islam does not condone
terrorism. Like all religions, there are those who preach false beliefs
to advance a heretical agenda.
"the Prophet Muhammad said that when Judgment Day draws near, the final
war between the Muslims and the Jews will take place. The Prophet said
that the Muslims would kill the Jews.

" 'Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and kill
them.' The Muslims will kill the Jews. Be patient. All the trees and all
the stones will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew
behind me, come and kill him ...' "

Koran:
2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in
preference of believers.
3:73 Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to
ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find
them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah
will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
5:57 Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians.
6:106 Stay away from disbelievers.
8:55 The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers.
**
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.
**
9:28 Disbelievers are unclean.
9:30 Christians and Jews are perverts. Allah himself fights against them.

I'm disappointed that you would cut & paste such propaganda from some
hate-mongering source without vetting it.

That's low even by the standards of this group.


Nonsense! Both AMuzi and I have read the complete Koran in the original
Arabic. Only Mr. Sherman spouts off without ever knowing what he is talking
about.


Arabic? Count me out on that one.
Selected english translations only. I'm not a scholar but I
got the general drift of it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Ads
  #22  
Old January 7th 10, 11:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Peter Cole[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,572
Default OT - Obama

AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
-snip-
Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
"Islamic terrorism" is an oxymoron, since Islam does not condone
terrorism. Like all religions, there are those who preach false
beliefs to advance a heretical agenda.

"the Prophet Muhammad said that when Judgment Day draws near, the
final war between the Muslims and the Jews will take place. The
Prophet said that the Muslims would kill the Jews.

" 'Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and
kill them.' The Muslims will kill the Jews. Be patient. All the trees
and all the stones will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there
is a Jew behind me, come and kill him ...' "

Koran:
2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in
preference of believers.
3:73 Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to
ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you
find them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah
will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
5:57 Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians.
6:106 Stay away from disbelievers.
8:55 The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers.
**
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.
**
9:28 Disbelievers are unclean.
9:30 Christians and Jews are perverts. Allah himself fights against
them.


I'm disappointed that you would cut & paste such propaganda from some
hate-mongering source without vetting it.

That's low even by the standards of this group.


Sir, do you mean to insult the koran's actual text?


No, but apparently you do, and our collective intelligence.
  #23  
Old January 7th 10, 11:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default OT - Obama


"Peter Cole" wrote in message
...
AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:

[...]
I'm disappointed that you would cut & paste such propaganda from some
hate-mongering source without vetting it.

That's low even by the standards of this group.


Sir, do you mean to insult the koran's actual text?


No, but apparently you do, and our collective intelligence.


AMuzi gave us an excellent exposition of what is in the Koran. Mr. Sherman
had the brains to withdraw from the field of battle, but here we are, stuck
with an idiot even beyond the standards of these groups. What is he
complaining about! Does he have other sources more correct? If so, let him
show us.

The Koran and Islam are for savages. It all comes right out of the Arabian
peninsula, a land of primitive Arab tribes who have never contributed one
damn thing to civilization. **** 'em - and **** Peter Cole too!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota



  #24  
Old January 8th 10, 03:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default OT - Obama


"Ron Wallenfang" wrote in message
...
[...]

I agree with your conclusion that Andrew has fairly characterized the

verses of the Koran he cited. There were two minor glitches. The
reference to 3.48 probably should have been to 3.148. 4.63 is also
probably an incorrect cite. His selection can be critiqued as, well,
selective, but it's hardly a case of proof-texting, i.e. taking an
isolated verse or phrase and building a major point on nothing more
than that. What he's shown must be some of the major themes of the
Koran, as demonstrated, inter alia, by their sheer multiplicity.

I do admire lawyerly thinking. The rest of these idiots on these newsgroups
seem never to know how to come to a conclusion about anything. But why not
say something about the despicable nature of the Muslim religion.
Intelligence without courage is wasted.

I have got my eye on you and will expect only intelligent posts. See that
you do not disappoint me.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota



  #25  
Old January 8th 10, 03:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Ron Wallenfang
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 414
Default OT - Obama

On Jan 7, 3:08*pm, AMuzi wrote:
Ron Wallenfang wrote:
On Jan 6, 8:57 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article ,


*AMuzi wrote:
-snip-
Tom Sherman _ wrote:
* "Islamic terrorism" is an oxymoron, since Islam does not
condone
terrorism. Like all religions, there are those who preach false beliefs
to advance a heretical agenda.
"the Prophet Muhammad said that when Judgment Day draws
near, the final war between the Muslims and the Jews will
take place. The Prophet said that the Muslims would kill the
Jews.
" 'Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the
Jews and kill them.' The Muslims will kill the Jews. Be
patient. All the trees and all the stones will say: 'Oh
Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come
and kill him ...' *"
Koran:
2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their
friends in preference of believers.
3:73 Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you
and want to ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers
wherever you find them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do,
then Allah will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
5:57 Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as
guardians.
6:106 Stay away from disbelievers.
8:55 The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers.
**
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.
**
9:28 Disbelievers are unclean.
9:30 Christians and Jews are perverts. Allah himself fights
against them.
"We're good, everybody else is bad." *That's an underlying belief in
almost all religions and most "isms." *Maybe not Buddhism.


--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Regarding the "We're good, everybody else is bad" generalization, may
I commend to your attention the Vatican 2 documents on ecumenism and
religious feedom, for official Catholic teaching on those subjects.


Regarding Islam, Andrew rightly went to the source and laid out many
citations to the Koran, to help focus the question: *To what extent do
the foundational documents of Islam mandate the agenda of today's
radical Jahadists?? *Or can there be a kinder, gentler Islam??


I dusted off my Koran and had a look at them, mindful that I can react
only to the language; I'm a stranger to the tradition. *As far as I
can tell, the case is not hopeless for the ultimate intra-Muslim
condemnation of the radical Jihadists. *Putting the best light on
their side of the case, I would argue:


1. *The Chapter 2 cites only address what God will do to the
unbeliever. *No mandate there for the faithful to play the role of the
avenging angel.


2. *The Chapter *3 and 5 cites, 4.101, 4.144 and 6.106 are decidedly
unecumenical, but mandate separation, not violence. *Still, there are
lots of cites, and it's difficult to reconcile them with the
achievement of a modern diverse society that recognizes, as the Koran
says elsewhere [2.256] that there can [and should] be no compulsion in
matters of religion. *They are troubling.


3. *It's difficult to see much hope for acceptable relationships in Ch.
9. *The best I can come up with is that they are extravagant
exaggerations along the lines of Christ's sermon on the mount (e.g.
"if thy right eye is an occasion of sin, cut it out"), designed to
make a different point. *Or perhaps that they are timebound to
Mohammed's day, such as St. Paul's "mandate" in I Cor that women must
cover their heads. *Or maybe that they are overridden by other verses
demanding tolerance, e.g 2.256. *After all, the Christian bible has *a
goodly number of seemingly conflicting statements that have to be
reconciled with each other.


I want to believe that this civil war within Islam will end well for
everyone. *I especially want to believe it because the alternative is
so unattractive. *But I'm not expecting the day to come in my
lifetime, when I can bicycle between Mecca and Medina to worship
Christ.


Here you go:http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qw...=41&wquery=cla...

--
Andrew Muzi
* www.yellowjersey.org/
* Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I don't think we disagree. The "clash of civilizations" has described
much of history since the 7th Century, though I haven't yet read
Huntington's book, and the Koranic verses you cite tell us why.

But I can dream. After all, much of the Old Testament is hardly more
tolerant; consider, for example the rejection by God of King Saul
because he failed to massacre the inhabitants of the lands he
conquered. But that material remains in the Bible, it is not
normative. As Vatican 2's Constitution on Divine Revelation puts it,
"These [OT] books, though they also contain some things which are
incomplete and temporary, ..........." (Par. 15) And rare indeed is
the Jew who sees accounts like these as models for conduct today.

I'm not ready to write off the chance for Islam to do likewise. Which
in no way reduces our need to act vigilantly today against today's
radical Jihadists.



Is
  #26  
Old January 8th 10, 03:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default OT - Obama


"Ron Wallenfang" wrote in message
...
[...]
I don't think we disagree. The "clash of civilizations" has described

much of history since the 7th Century, though I haven't yet read
Huntington's book, and the Koranic verses you cite tell us why.

But I can dream. After all, much of the Old Testament is hardly more

tolerant; consider, for example the rejection by God of King Saul
because he failed to massacre the inhabitants of the lands he
conquered. But that material remains in the Bible, it is not
normative. As Vatican 2's Constitution on Divine Revelation puts it,
"These [OT] books, though they also contain some things which are
incomplete and temporary, ..........." (Par. 15) And rare indeed is
the Jew who sees accounts like these as models for conduct today.

Ron, sometimes I think you must be an idiot. All that you cite above is
ancient history and has no relevance for today. Only primitive Muslims ever
reference it.

I'm not ready to write off the chance for Islam to do likewise. Which

in no way reduces our need to act vigilantly today against today's
radical Jihadists.

The Muslim religion was never reformed like Christianity was. It is as
primitive now as the day it was born. It is a religion for simple mined
people who continue to live in the Middle Ages. The best and only solution
is to kill them before they kill us. Your tolerance will be the death of us
all.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota




  #27  
Old January 8th 10, 03:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,945
Default OT - Obama

In article
,
Ron Wallenfang wrote:

Regarding the "We're good, everybody else is bad" generalization, may
I commend to your attention the Vatican 2 documents on ecumenism and
religious feedom, for official Catholic teaching on those subjects.


The official stance of the Catholic Church is that it is the one true
faith. Accept no substitutes. Heard lots of that stuff in CCD and
Catholic schools. The priests and nuns and brothers were not bashful
about their ecumenical superiority.

Regarding Islam, Andrew rightly went to the source and laid out many
citations to the Koran, to help focus the question: To what extent
do the foundational documents of Islam mandate the agenda of today's
radical Jahadists?? Or can there be a kinder, gentler Islam??


For that discussion to take place, good translations are necessary for
those of us who speak not the source languages. This seems to be
difficult at times. That's not unique to Islam and the Koran- the Bible
has had centuries of political editing, translation errors both direct
(source languages to English) and cumulative (source languages to
intermediary language(s) to English).

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."
  #28  
Old January 8th 10, 04:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,945
Default OT - Obama

In article
,
Ron Wallenfang wrote:

I don't think we disagree. The "clash of civilizations" has
described much of history since the 7th Century, though I haven't yet
read Huntington's book, and the Koranic verses you cite tell us why.


Only part of the story. All three of the Abrahamaic religions have
strong tendencies to expansionism which has shaped the cultures in which
they are embedded.

But I can dream. After all, much of the Old Testament is hardly more
tolerant; consider, for example the rejection by God of King Saul
because he failed to massacre the inhabitants of the lands he
conquered. But that material remains in the Bible, it is not
normative. As Vatican 2's Constitution on Divine Revelation puts it,
"These [OT] books, though they also contain some things which are
incomplete and temporary, ..........." (Par. 15) And rare indeed is
the Jew who sees accounts like these as models for conduct today.


Or, for that matter, the Jewish scholar who thinks that the material in
the Christian OT can be fruitfully interpreted literally.

I'm not ready to write off the chance for Islam to do likewise.
Which in no way reduces our need to act vigilantly today against
today's radical Jihadists.


Criminals are criminals.

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."
  #29  
Old January 8th 10, 04:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Ron Wallenfang
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 414
Default OT - Obama

On Jan 7, 8:07*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:

.........why not
say something about the despicable nature of the Muslim religion.
Intelligence without courage is wasted.

I have got my eye on you and will expect only intelligent posts. See that
you do not disappoint me.


Sorry to disappoint you so quickly, Ed, but I'm not going there. The
following from the Second Vatican Council is not doctrinal, but sound
advice:

"Alhough in the course of the centuries many quarrels and hostilities
have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this ....Synod urges all
to forget the past and to strive sincerely for mutual understanding."

This was written in 1965, when miltant Islam had not yet emerged from
a comparatively quiescent period dating back roughly to the lifting
of the siege of Vienna in 1683. It looks rather naive today, but eras
come and eras go, and firm resistance to radical Islam (oh, and plus
some Divine assistance) could work wonders. Bush and Ratzinger cannot
match the achievement of Reagan and Wojtyla, but they had a tougher
not to crack, and it may yet happen.

Consider the case of Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Sistani. He's no minor
figure. Shia Islam is hierarchical and he's at the top of the heap in
Iraq. Without ever actively collaborating with the US, he was perhaps
the key to the comparative success of that operation. What he showed
was the ability to see the good as well as the bad in what was to him
the infidel invader, and to make the prudential judgments that
transformed Iraq from a brutal dictatorship run by Sunnis, to a
democracy largely dominated by Shi-ites.

We too need to be able to look behind the Islamic mask, and separate
the Sistanis and Sadats from the Khameinis and Ahmadinejads. While
we're not about to bike ride between Medinah and Mecca, maybe we can
hope someday to go from Beirut to Baghdad.

  #30  
Old January 8th 10, 04:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
Edward Dolan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,212
Default OT - Obama


"Tim McNamara" wrote in message
...
[...]
I would say that Andrew's quoted synopsis of 4.89 unfairly characterized
the fuller texts, which refer to killing those converts to Islam who
revert to their old religion. Nasty enough, IMHO, but not an injunction
to randomly kill those who do not believe in Islam.

Most religions contain enough hateful, heinous material in their
scriptures- including Christianity and Judaism- that there's no reason
to modify the quotations to show this. But, because religions are
competitive (especially the Abrahamaic religions), it has been a popular
sport among threatened right-wing Christians to modify Islamic texts to
make them look bad (worse).

There are sociopaths wearing the clothes of all three of these
religions, claiming righteousness while laying waste to their enemies.


Tim McNamara is one of the most ignorant souls ever to infest these
newsgroups. But he is a Minnesotan and therefore entitled to his stupidity.
After all, Minnesota is the land of Humphrey, Mondale, E. McCarthy and other
assorted liberal idiots.

Not to be able to make discriminations marks you as a liberal asshole. Not
even Tom Sherman would make his mistake. Note how he lumps all religions
together - as though they are all the same. The Muslims of today are into
killing Christians and any others who get in their way. As far as I know, no
Christians or Jews are wantonly killing anyone.

I can only hope a Muslim Jihadist murders Tim McNamara and puts him out of
his misery. We do not need simpletons like him. He would be better off dead.
He has a treasonous nature.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota







 




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