#21
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OT - Obama
Edward Dolan wrote:
"Peter Cole" wrote in message ... AMuzi wrote: -snip- Tom Sherman °_° wrote: "Islamic terrorism" is an oxymoron, since Islam does not condone terrorism. Like all religions, there are those who preach false beliefs to advance a heretical agenda. "the Prophet Muhammad said that when Judgment Day draws near, the final war between the Muslims and the Jews will take place. The Prophet said that the Muslims would kill the Jews. " 'Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them.' The Muslims will kill the Jews. Be patient. All the trees and all the stones will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him ...' " Koran: 2:10 Disbelievers are diseased. 2:99 Disbelievers are evil people. 2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind. 3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers. 3:73 Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:48 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad. 4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 5:51 Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51 Jews and Christians are losers. 5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine. 5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people. 5:57 Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 6:106 Stay away from disbelievers. 8:55 The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. ** 9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them. ** 9:28 Disbelievers are unclean. 9:30 Christians and Jews are perverts. Allah himself fights against them. I'm disappointed that you would cut & paste such propaganda from some hate-mongering source without vetting it. That's low even by the standards of this group. Nonsense! Both AMuzi and I have read the complete Koran in the original Arabic. Only Mr. Sherman spouts off without ever knowing what he is talking about. Arabic? Count me out on that one. Selected english translations only. I'm not a scholar but I got the general drift of it. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#22
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OT - Obama
AMuzi wrote:
Peter Cole wrote: AMuzi wrote: -snip- Tom Sherman °_° wrote: "Islamic terrorism" is an oxymoron, since Islam does not condone terrorism. Like all religions, there are those who preach false beliefs to advance a heretical agenda. "the Prophet Muhammad said that when Judgment Day draws near, the final war between the Muslims and the Jews will take place. The Prophet said that the Muslims would kill the Jews. " 'Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them.' The Muslims will kill the Jews. Be patient. All the trees and all the stones will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him ...' " Koran: 2:10 Disbelievers are diseased. 2:99 Disbelievers are evil people. 2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind. 3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers. 3:73 Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:48 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad. 4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 5:51 Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51 Jews and Christians are losers. 5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine. 5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people. 5:57 Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 6:106 Stay away from disbelievers. 8:55 The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. ** 9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them. ** 9:28 Disbelievers are unclean. 9:30 Christians and Jews are perverts. Allah himself fights against them. I'm disappointed that you would cut & paste such propaganda from some hate-mongering source without vetting it. That's low even by the standards of this group. Sir, do you mean to insult the koran's actual text? No, but apparently you do, and our collective intelligence. |
#23
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OT - Obama
"Peter Cole" wrote in message ... AMuzi wrote: Peter Cole wrote: [...] I'm disappointed that you would cut & paste such propaganda from some hate-mongering source without vetting it. That's low even by the standards of this group. Sir, do you mean to insult the koran's actual text? No, but apparently you do, and our collective intelligence. AMuzi gave us an excellent exposition of what is in the Koran. Mr. Sherman had the brains to withdraw from the field of battle, but here we are, stuck with an idiot even beyond the standards of these groups. What is he complaining about! Does he have other sources more correct? If so, let him show us. The Koran and Islam are for savages. It all comes right out of the Arabian peninsula, a land of primitive Arab tribes who have never contributed one damn thing to civilization. **** 'em - and **** Peter Cole too! Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota |
#24
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OT - Obama
"Ron Wallenfang" wrote in message ... [...] I agree with your conclusion that Andrew has fairly characterized the verses of the Koran he cited. There were two minor glitches. The reference to 3.48 probably should have been to 3.148. 4.63 is also probably an incorrect cite. His selection can be critiqued as, well, selective, but it's hardly a case of proof-texting, i.e. taking an isolated verse or phrase and building a major point on nothing more than that. What he's shown must be some of the major themes of the Koran, as demonstrated, inter alia, by their sheer multiplicity. I do admire lawyerly thinking. The rest of these idiots on these newsgroups seem never to know how to come to a conclusion about anything. But why not say something about the despicable nature of the Muslim religion. Intelligence without courage is wasted. I have got my eye on you and will expect only intelligent posts. See that you do not disappoint me. Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota |
#25
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OT - Obama
On Jan 7, 3:08*pm, AMuzi wrote:
Ron Wallenfang wrote: On Jan 6, 8:57 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: In article , *AMuzi wrote: -snip- Tom Sherman _ wrote: * "Islamic terrorism" is an oxymoron, since Islam does not condone terrorism. Like all religions, there are those who preach false beliefs to advance a heretical agenda. "the Prophet Muhammad said that when Judgment Day draws near, the final war between the Muslims and the Jews will take place. The Prophet said that the Muslims would kill the Jews. " 'Judgment Day will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them.' The Muslims will kill the Jews. Be patient. All the trees and all the stones will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him ...' *" Koran: 2:10 Disbelievers are diseased. 2:99 Disbelievers are evil people. 2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind. 3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers. 3:73 Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:48 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad. 4:101 The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 5:51 Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51 Jews and Christians are losers. 5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine. 5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people. 5:57 Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 6:106 Stay away from disbelievers. 8:55 The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers. ** 9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them. ** 9:28 Disbelievers are unclean. 9:30 Christians and Jews are perverts. Allah himself fights against them. "We're good, everybody else is bad." *That's an underlying belief in almost all religions and most "isms." *Maybe not Buddhism. -- "I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Regarding the "We're good, everybody else is bad" generalization, may I commend to your attention the Vatican 2 documents on ecumenism and religious feedom, for official Catholic teaching on those subjects. Regarding Islam, Andrew rightly went to the source and laid out many citations to the Koran, to help focus the question: *To what extent do the foundational documents of Islam mandate the agenda of today's radical Jahadists?? *Or can there be a kinder, gentler Islam?? I dusted off my Koran and had a look at them, mindful that I can react only to the language; I'm a stranger to the tradition. *As far as I can tell, the case is not hopeless for the ultimate intra-Muslim condemnation of the radical Jihadists. *Putting the best light on their side of the case, I would argue: 1. *The Chapter 2 cites only address what God will do to the unbeliever. *No mandate there for the faithful to play the role of the avenging angel. 2. *The Chapter *3 and 5 cites, 4.101, 4.144 and 6.106 are decidedly unecumenical, but mandate separation, not violence. *Still, there are lots of cites, and it's difficult to reconcile them with the achievement of a modern diverse society that recognizes, as the Koran says elsewhere [2.256] that there can [and should] be no compulsion in matters of religion. *They are troubling. 3. *It's difficult to see much hope for acceptable relationships in Ch. 9. *The best I can come up with is that they are extravagant exaggerations along the lines of Christ's sermon on the mount (e.g. "if thy right eye is an occasion of sin, cut it out"), designed to make a different point. *Or perhaps that they are timebound to Mohammed's day, such as St. Paul's "mandate" in I Cor that women must cover their heads. *Or maybe that they are overridden by other verses demanding tolerance, e.g 2.256. *After all, the Christian bible has *a goodly number of seemingly conflicting statements that have to be reconciled with each other. I want to believe that this civil war within Islam will end well for everyone. *I especially want to believe it because the alternative is so unattractive. *But I'm not expecting the day to come in my lifetime, when I can bicycle between Mecca and Medina to worship Christ. Here you go:http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qw...=41&wquery=cla... -- Andrew Muzi * www.yellowjersey.org/ * Open every day since 1 April, 1971- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I don't think we disagree. The "clash of civilizations" has described much of history since the 7th Century, though I haven't yet read Huntington's book, and the Koranic verses you cite tell us why. But I can dream. After all, much of the Old Testament is hardly more tolerant; consider, for example the rejection by God of King Saul because he failed to massacre the inhabitants of the lands he conquered. But that material remains in the Bible, it is not normative. As Vatican 2's Constitution on Divine Revelation puts it, "These [OT] books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, ..........." (Par. 15) And rare indeed is the Jew who sees accounts like these as models for conduct today. I'm not ready to write off the chance for Islam to do likewise. Which in no way reduces our need to act vigilantly today against today's radical Jihadists. Is |
#26
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OT - Obama
"Ron Wallenfang" wrote in message ... [...] I don't think we disagree. The "clash of civilizations" has described much of history since the 7th Century, though I haven't yet read Huntington's book, and the Koranic verses you cite tell us why. But I can dream. After all, much of the Old Testament is hardly more tolerant; consider, for example the rejection by God of King Saul because he failed to massacre the inhabitants of the lands he conquered. But that material remains in the Bible, it is not normative. As Vatican 2's Constitution on Divine Revelation puts it, "These [OT] books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, ..........." (Par. 15) And rare indeed is the Jew who sees accounts like these as models for conduct today. Ron, sometimes I think you must be an idiot. All that you cite above is ancient history and has no relevance for today. Only primitive Muslims ever reference it. I'm not ready to write off the chance for Islam to do likewise. Which in no way reduces our need to act vigilantly today against today's radical Jihadists. The Muslim religion was never reformed like Christianity was. It is as primitive now as the day it was born. It is a religion for simple mined people who continue to live in the Middle Ages. The best and only solution is to kill them before they kill us. Your tolerance will be the death of us all. Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota |
#27
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OT - Obama
In article
, Ron Wallenfang wrote: Regarding the "We're good, everybody else is bad" generalization, may I commend to your attention the Vatican 2 documents on ecumenism and religious feedom, for official Catholic teaching on those subjects. The official stance of the Catholic Church is that it is the one true faith. Accept no substitutes. Heard lots of that stuff in CCD and Catholic schools. The priests and nuns and brothers were not bashful about their ecumenical superiority. Regarding Islam, Andrew rightly went to the source and laid out many citations to the Koran, to help focus the question: To what extent do the foundational documents of Islam mandate the agenda of today's radical Jahadists?? Or can there be a kinder, gentler Islam?? For that discussion to take place, good translations are necessary for those of us who speak not the source languages. This seems to be difficult at times. That's not unique to Islam and the Koran- the Bible has had centuries of political editing, translation errors both direct (source languages to English) and cumulative (source languages to intermediary language(s) to English). -- "I wear the cheese, it does not wear me." |
#28
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OT - Obama
In article
, Ron Wallenfang wrote: I don't think we disagree. The "clash of civilizations" has described much of history since the 7th Century, though I haven't yet read Huntington's book, and the Koranic verses you cite tell us why. Only part of the story. All three of the Abrahamaic religions have strong tendencies to expansionism which has shaped the cultures in which they are embedded. But I can dream. After all, much of the Old Testament is hardly more tolerant; consider, for example the rejection by God of King Saul because he failed to massacre the inhabitants of the lands he conquered. But that material remains in the Bible, it is not normative. As Vatican 2's Constitution on Divine Revelation puts it, "These [OT] books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, ..........." (Par. 15) And rare indeed is the Jew who sees accounts like these as models for conduct today. Or, for that matter, the Jewish scholar who thinks that the material in the Christian OT can be fruitfully interpreted literally. I'm not ready to write off the chance for Islam to do likewise. Which in no way reduces our need to act vigilantly today against today's radical Jihadists. Criminals are criminals. -- "I wear the cheese, it does not wear me." |
#29
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OT - Obama
On Jan 7, 8:07*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
.........why not say something about the despicable nature of the Muslim religion. Intelligence without courage is wasted. I have got my eye on you and will expect only intelligent posts. See that you do not disappoint me. Sorry to disappoint you so quickly, Ed, but I'm not going there. The following from the Second Vatican Council is not doctrinal, but sound advice: "Alhough in the course of the centuries many quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this ....Synod urges all to forget the past and to strive sincerely for mutual understanding." This was written in 1965, when miltant Islam had not yet emerged from a comparatively quiescent period dating back roughly to the lifting of the siege of Vienna in 1683. It looks rather naive today, but eras come and eras go, and firm resistance to radical Islam (oh, and plus some Divine assistance) could work wonders. Bush and Ratzinger cannot match the achievement of Reagan and Wojtyla, but they had a tougher not to crack, and it may yet happen. Consider the case of Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Sistani. He's no minor figure. Shia Islam is hierarchical and he's at the top of the heap in Iraq. Without ever actively collaborating with the US, he was perhaps the key to the comparative success of that operation. What he showed was the ability to see the good as well as the bad in what was to him the infidel invader, and to make the prudential judgments that transformed Iraq from a brutal dictatorship run by Sunnis, to a democracy largely dominated by Shi-ites. We too need to be able to look behind the Islamic mask, and separate the Sistanis and Sadats from the Khameinis and Ahmadinejads. While we're not about to bike ride between Medinah and Mecca, maybe we can hope someday to go from Beirut to Baghdad. |
#30
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OT - Obama
"Tim McNamara" wrote in message ... [...] I would say that Andrew's quoted synopsis of 4.89 unfairly characterized the fuller texts, which refer to killing those converts to Islam who revert to their old religion. Nasty enough, IMHO, but not an injunction to randomly kill those who do not believe in Islam. Most religions contain enough hateful, heinous material in their scriptures- including Christianity and Judaism- that there's no reason to modify the quotations to show this. But, because religions are competitive (especially the Abrahamaic religions), it has been a popular sport among threatened right-wing Christians to modify Islamic texts to make them look bad (worse). There are sociopaths wearing the clothes of all three of these religions, claiming righteousness while laying waste to their enemies. Tim McNamara is one of the most ignorant souls ever to infest these newsgroups. But he is a Minnesotan and therefore entitled to his stupidity. After all, Minnesota is the land of Humphrey, Mondale, E. McCarthy and other assorted liberal idiots. Not to be able to make discriminations marks you as a liberal asshole. Not even Tom Sherman would make his mistake. Note how he lumps all religions together - as though they are all the same. The Muslims of today are into killing Christians and any others who get in their way. As far as I know, no Christians or Jews are wantonly killing anyone. I can only hope a Muslim Jihadist murders Tim McNamara and puts him out of his misery. We do not need simpletons like him. He would be better off dead. He has a treasonous nature. Regards, Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota aka Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota |
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