Do tires make a difference in ride feel?

Ivar Hesselager wrote:
26 Mar 2006 01:48:15 GMT, skrev:



I haven't been on the Jaufen pass in many years. You must be thinking
of someone else.



Jobst Brandt


As I wrote - on the way down from Timmelsjoch - not Jaufenpass. Must
have been the summer of 2004.

Still no recollection? Must have been some other grumpy old man.

Can Mr. Brandt not easy be recognized by his bike? A yellow one with a
huge headtube length

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

Diablo Scott wrote:

I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't
ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on
Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting
bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on the
same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special offers. Just
got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi

Make that 57tpi. Continental cheats by counting all three layers and so
multiplying what would be the figures of other manufacturers by 3.

They have some good reason for doing this. For example, their Sport
1000s are only 21tpi, so it certainly sounds more competitve with other
manufacturers to say 84tpi (there's one extra thread at the edge).
Grand Prix and Ultra 2000, also 57tpi actual; Grand Prix "Super Sonic"
(NOT) 62tpi, Grand Prix 3000, 4 Season, 86tpi. Compare with quality
tires that are 33tpi for cheapies (Michelin Dynamic), 66tpi for
inexpensive or normal (Panaracer, IRC and Avocet 25mm), and 127 for
high-end, =25mm: IRC, Avocet, Michelin.

57tpi is reasonably close to 66, so UltraGatorskin, and the Ultra 2000,
are reasonable tires. I have a folding one in 28 as a spare, because it
came with brown sidewalls, slick carbon tread, and a $17.95 price tag.
New production has black sidewalls, which may also indicate they fixed
the problem with their formerly cotton chafing protectors unravelling
into kite string and wrapping around the cluster, "only under specific
environmental conditions", according to Conti reps.e

wrote:

I have a stash of light colored bare-wall Avocet ROAD 20 tires that
meet my expectation although not as good as the original ones made by
IRC.

You've mentioned this before but do you mean blackwall? I thought all
tan sidewall production was Japan, and Korea was black. More
importantly, could you explain what the difference is between whichever
two it is that bothers you, whether in construction, perfomance, or
durability?

IRC out of bicycle tire business: I imagine you mean they
sub-contracted the production to a Korean entity, to whom they also
sold the equipment. A while back, when IRC changed their own Road
Winners and others to black wall, a friend with similar concerns wrote
them to ask a "say it isn't so" question. This was the reply from IRC
he forwarded:

==========================================
Thanks you for your comments.

The reason the IRC website shows only the all-black Roadwinner is in
response to current fashion. 85% of the Roadwinner sales for 2004 were
with the all-black configuration.

However, the Roadwinner is still available in a skin-wall from several
US distributors. I believe that it would not be difficult for your local
shop to track down and order the size, color and sans-Kevlar belt
options you prefer. I know for a fact that J&B importers distributes
these tires in many sizes and colors.

Here's are a few comments to chew on, however:
* There might be a bit of a misconception regarding the sidewall
colors, however. The black skin-wall tires are the same, exact material
and construction as the skin-wall tires. Only the rubber compound color
is different. There are some cheaper tires that employ a thicker
sidewall material (or gumwall) available in both black and the yellowish
color, but this is mostly reserved for low-end product construction.

* Also, I believe it is actually easier to detect a worn out
sidewall casing with the black skin-wall. The tire cords are light in
color (almost the same as the skin-wall rubber compound color). When the
sidewalls are worn, heavy creasing will occur on the black sidewalls,
thus revealing the light-colored casing threads. The contrast of these
two colors provides a good visual warning, although I must say that
tread itself usually cracks far before the sidewalls blowout with IRC
tires.

* One final point, the all-black versions actually hold up better
to ultra-violet exposure. The yellow-color rubber compound contains no
carbon and is there for less stable.

Thank you again for taking the time to write IRC.

Regards,

[representative@] | IRC North America
2900 3rd Avenue North Seattle, WA 98109-1733 USA
www.IRCTire.com

================================================== ============

Diablo Scott writes:

I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't
ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on
Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting
bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on
the same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special
offers. Just got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi

I don't believe a word of it. 170TPI is a 0.006" (1/170) diameter
thread, better than any silk track tire made. "Ultra Gatorskin" is
also Continental hyperbole of the worst kind. They have mediocre
tires but superlative marketeers who come up with these phrases and
names that appeal to the enthusiast.

Jobst Brandt

George King writes:

I have a stash of light colored bare-wall Avocet ROAD 20 tires that
meet my expectation although not as good as the original ones made
by IRC.

You've mentioned this before but do you mean blackwall? I thought
all tan sidewall production was Japan, and Korea was black. More
importantly, could you explain what the difference is between
whichever two it is that bothers you, whether in construction,
performance, or durability?

As I said, I have purchased these a while back and still have enough
to go for a while. Then I'll have to see what's available. The black
casings have had flaws that caused bulges and the tread is
back-ass-wards, with a thin coating of the high durability rubber over
a thick body of the faster wearing rubber. This is visible as the
tire wears in that a rougher texture shows up. (Wear rate is
proportional to surface roughness according to Schallamach).

http://www.pse.umass.edu/crosby/researchprojects.html

IRC out of bicycle tire business: I imagine you mean they
sub-contracted the production to a Korean entity, to whom they also
sold the equipment. A while back, when IRC changed their own Road
Winners and others to black wall, a friend with similar concerns
wrote them to ask a "say it isn't so" question. This was the reply
from IRC he forwarded:

==========================================
# Thanks you for your comments.

# The reason the IRC website shows only the all-black Roadwinner is in
# response to current fashion. 85% of the Roadwinner sales for 2004
# were with the all-black configuration.

# However, the Roadwinner is still available in a skin-wall from
# several US distributors. I believe that it would not be difficult
# for your local shop to track down and order the size, color and
# sans-Kevlar belt options you prefer. I know for a fact that J&B
# importers distributes these tires in many sizes and colors.

# Here's are a few comments to chew on, however:

# * There might be a bit of a misconception regarding the sidewall
# colors, however. The black skin-wall tires are the same, exact
# material and construction as the skin-wall tires. Only the rubber
# compound color is different. There are some cheaper tires that
# employ a thicker sidewall material (or gumwall) available in both
# black and the yellowish color, but this is mostly reserved for
# low-end product construction.

# * Also, I believe it is actually easier to detect a worn out
# sidewall casing with the black skin-wall. The tire cords are light
# in color (almost the same as the skin-wall rubber compound
# color). When the sidewalls are worn, heavy creasing will occur on
# the black sidewalls, thus revealing the light-colored casing
# threads. The contrast of these two colors provides a good visual
# warning, although I must say that tread itself usually cracks far
# before the sidewalls blowout with IRC tires.

# * One final point, the all-black versions actually hold up better to
# ultra-violet exposure. The yellow-color rubber compound contains no
# carbon and is there for less stable.

# Thank you again for taking the time to write IRC.

# Regards,

# [representative@] | IRC North America
# 2900 3rd Avenue North Seattle, WA 98109-1733 USA
# www.IRCTire.com

================================================== ============

That's it. My tires don't live long enough to suffer ultra-violet damage.

Jobst Brandt

wrote:
Ivar Hesselager writes:


Conti's GP 3000 are not only famous of their vulnerability to
sidewall cuts, but also of their good clincher-like feel.


This is a great collection, supple, lively, good feel, what's next in
qualitative assessment of tires. This goes back to the dark ages of
bicycle lore, or maybe this is the dark age of bicycle technology, aka
fashion.

so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last
couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly
does that hurt? by jobstian logic, no progress could be made in any
arena because all new technology would be disregarded and ridiculed.



If the roads you are riding give you only the benefits and not the
problems of the GP 3000, you have a good reason to stick to one of
the best tires on the market, regarding feel.


Furthermore these tires are on sale most places these days, because
they are going out of the market soon, being substituted by GP 4000.


Suggestively tough names like Armadillo, Vector-pro, GP 3000, along
with colored rubber is a great skid backward for tires.

how exactly does colored rubber make any damned difference? carbon
black reinforced rubber is that color because it is latex mixed with
soot. go figure. silica reinforced rubber otoh is any color you want
it to be because silica is what color jobst? and silica compounds offer
/what/ advantages over carbon compounds jobst? you /are/ current on
your rubber technology aren't you - seeing as you seem to feel qualified
to lecture on this subject?

Judging by
how the roads are full of huge black, black windowed SUV's with four
exhaust pipes that rumble to match the beat of the knobby tires,
society cares more for appearance than ever. The more one spends, the
better one stands among his peers.

eh? do you know what "hypocrite" means? you're the guy that exercises
/exactly/ the same f.you attitude among the bike community that your
much mentioned "black windowed SUV's" do among motorists.



I'm an old middleweight and (over)cautious rider - and I like the
feel of the Conti "4-Season" 25 mm version the best, because it has
better traction and makes me dare going faster through the curves -
especially on wet roads. And it also has reinforced sidewalls,
which means a lot on the roads I ride on.


Where do you sense the "better traction" of these tires? I can't
visualize and old middleweight in hard cornering at the limit of
traction.

and there you go again. aren't you the guy that publishes pics of
himself doing that exact same thing?



But if I was riding your roads I would stick to those GP 3000's as
long as they are available.


Ivar of Denmark

In Denmark? I wasn't aware that American consumer syndrome had
arrived there yet. Roads are roads around the world. The way you
tell it, there are special tires for each nation's roads. Tires are
manufactured everywhere in the world and have no national features.

Jobst Brandt

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote:

so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last
couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly
does that hurt?

What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You can't
compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement. Actually,
that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make a
clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate) the
performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo.

The problem with bicycle tires is that the best material, silk casing, is
no longer available at prices we can afford. This is probably due to the
decline in slave labor.

As far as rubber compounds, it is highly debatable that there has been any
improvement. Until you see someone with serious money to invest, like
Nascar, using colored rubber tires, you won't have much of an argument for
their superiority. But we see colored rubber touted as the best thing
since sliced bread. It's marketing, not engineering, that wins in this
market.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's be straight here. If we find something we can't
_`\(,_ | understand we like to call it something you can't understand, or
(_)/ (_) | indeed even pronounce. -- Douglas Adams

David L. Johnson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote:


so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the last
couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what exactly
does that hurt?


What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You can't
compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement.

there's grip and there's rolling resistance. with carbon reinforced
rubbers, the hysteresis characteristics of the compound means you can
choose one or the other. with silica reinforced rubbers, you can have both.

Actually,
that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make a
clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate) the
performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo.

jobst is solely focused on rolling resistance for a polished steel drum.
where does grip enter his research? and what are your local roads
paved with?


The problem with bicycle tires is that the best material, silk casing, is
no longer available at prices we can afford. This is probably due to the
decline in slave labor.

As far as rubber compounds, it is highly debatable that there has been any
improvement. Until you see someone with serious money to invest, like
Nascar, using colored rubber tires, you won't have much of an argument for
their superiority. But we see colored rubber touted as the best thing
since sliced bread. It's marketing, not engineering, that wins in this
market.

so what about the marketing? the technology is a matter of fact, not
r.b.t ludditism. inability to seek or assimilate information is not a
basis for criticism. besides, silica rubbers are more expensive to
produce than carbon rubbers, so there's absolutely /no/ reason to use
them if marketing alone can sufficiently differentiate product.

Diablo Scott writes:
I'll speak well of them. Never had a sidewall issue - true, I don't
ride too many gravel roads, but some and when I do it's usually on
Continentals. I've run Ultra 2000s on my foul weather and commuting
bike for years. They seem to last longer than others I've used on
the same bike - I chose them for their durability, no special
offers. Just got a pair of the new Ultra Gatorskins; 170tpi

wrote:
I don't believe a word of it. 170TPI is a 0.006" (1/170) diameter
thread, better than any silk track tire made. "Ultra Gatorskin" is
also Continental hyperbole of the worst kind. They have mediocre
tires but superlative marketeers who come up with these phrases and
names that appeal to the enthusiast.

I don't have any relation ship with Continental but when I
see them on bikes here for service it's clear the thread
counts are very low - heck, even I can count up to 20 with a
ruler.
(My eyes cannot resolve 127tpi threads without a maginfier)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article ,
jim beam wrote:

David L. Johnson wrote:
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 10:45:56 -0800, jim beam wrote:

so what? there's been progress in tire compound technology in the
last couple of decades. if that is accompanied by hyperbole, what
exactly does that hurt?

What makes you say that? What progress can you point to? You
can't compare to the tires of 30 years ago, and show improvement.

there's grip and there's rolling resistance. with carbon reinforced
rubbers, the hysteresis characteristics of the compound means you can
choose one or the other. with silica reinforced rubbers, you can
have both.

So far that's not what's happened where the silica meets the road.
Especially in the wet. Been lots of discussion of this, check it out
sometime.

Actually,
that's Jobst's claim to fame here; he worked to get Avocet to make
a clincher tire that could approximate (not exceed, approximate)
the performance of the Clement Campionato del Mundo.

jobst is solely focused on rolling resistance for a polished steel
drum. where does grip enter his research? and what are your local
roads paved with?

Good grief, jim. Can you pick tinier nits?

And if you haven't been paying attention, you'd know that Jobst tested
grip with a tilt table.