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  #101  
Old April 17th 13, 10:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Michael Press
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,202
Default Statisitics

In article
,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Mar 26, 10:55Â*pm, Dan O wrote:
On Mar 26, 6:51 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:









On Mar 26, 6:45 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:


I am told that in some US states, you can treat the light as though it
were broken -- but not here in Oregon.http://bikeportland.org/2011/03/11/s...blems-wash-co-...


This failure of a sensor or induction loop is usually in the turn
lane, and what you're supposed to do is act like a pedestrian -- go to
the nearest curb and use the cross-walk button. Â*But even that
requires you to break the traffic laws if you are pinned in the left
turn lane. Â*You have to go back across on-coming traffic to get to a
curb. Â*Might as well just turn. Â*This really does need to be addressed
in the UVC.


The Ohio Bicycle Federation has a proposal to change the law so as to
specifically treat non-detection as a defective signal. Â*As of a few
days ago, we're pretty sure we've got one lawmaker as a sponsor, and a
couple more looking at co-sponsoring. Â*But yes, that needs to be in
the UVC.


I've had a left turn signal fail to detect my motorcycle. Â*In a way,
it's even more of a problem, since I can't shuffle the motorcycle
around or lie it down over the sensor to better affect the loop.


Last fall, in my car, I was in a line of cars behind a tractor trailer
rig that couldn't trigger a light. Â*Cross traffic was heavy, and we
waited for nearly five minutes before the truck driver got enough
clear space to proceed. Â*As soon as the following car hit the loop
sensor, the light changed. Â*Apparently the truck's metal was too high
to affect the sensing field.


I know one guy who convinced his city's traffic crew to make up a test
rig - an aluminum 20" bike wheel mounted on a 2x4 - to use when
calibrating signals. Â*That really should be in the calibration manual,
and used every time a loop sensor is calibrated. Â*However, it won't
work for the newer camera-based systems. Â*For those, a bicyclist
silhouette is needed, I think.


Ohio DOT now has an email address devoted to the problem. Â*Ohio
cyclists can send email to Â*describing
the problem at the sensor. Â*They'll contact the responsible party to
get it adjusted. Â*I've not tried this myself (the ones I pass seem to
work well for me) but I've heard others have had good success. Â*Other
states should do something similar.


It's a lot less hassle to just ride across when it's clear.


Some people try to fix problems, some people don't.


Enough people quietly following a path create change.
You are too far up on your high horse to see this.

--
Michael Press
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  #102  
Old April 17th 13, 10:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Michael Press
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,202
Default Statisitics

In article
,
Dan O wrote:

On Mar 28, 12:05 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 27, 11:31 pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:



On Tue, 26 Mar 2013 18:51:32 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski


wrote:
I know one guy who convinced his city's traffic crew to make up a test
rig - an aluminum 20" bike wheel mounted on a 2x4 - to use when
calibrating signals. That really should be in the calibration manual,
and used every time a loop sensor is calibrated. However, it won't
work for the newer camera-based systems. For those, a bicyclist
silhouette is needed, I think.


Nope. Watch these videos and note that the cyclists are detected by
their thermal signature almost head on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERJklRkh_pc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DMrZz-LsM0
To the best of my knowledge, none of these traffic cameras have any
kind of silhouette pattern matching or detection capabilities.


http://www.traficon.com/information/news_detail.jsp?id=162
When the detector sees a bicycle approach the intersection, the
traffic controller increases the green dwell time to allow additional
time for the bicycle to make it through the intersection. Last time I
checked, most cyclists roar through the intersection at maximum speed
to reduce the amount of time they present a target for drivers.
Another way to read it is that the revenue enhancement opportunities
for traffic light timing control isn't ruined by accommodating
cyclists.


Those examples did look like they worked well. But locally, I've had
cyclists tell me about a camera-controlled intersection where they
were not detected. And a well-connected cycling activist in a distant
city was the one who told me about using a cutout to calibrate the
camera.

Maybe different camera companies use different technology? I note
that the "window" on your examples spanned the entire intersection. I
like that; but ISTR seeing calibration images online from (apparently)
a different camera vendor, which showed multiple and separate windows,
one "looking at" the front of each lane.

I also note that the one you've pointed to uses infrared. I wonder if
there are any using visible light instead? In one discussion, a
cyclist talked about opening his jacket wide to increase the size of
his visible image, to aid in detection. Of course, that would also
make him appear "hotter" to an infrared camera.

I guess I should track down the various vendors and see how their
technologies vary.


A lot less hassle to just blow the light.


Amen, brother.
(after a full stop and a 360 degree assessment of the environment)

--
Michael Press
  #103  
Old April 17th 13, 03:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,673
Default Statisitics

On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:51:38 AM UTC-4, Michael Press wrote:
In article

,

Frank Krygowski wrote:


Ohio DOT now has an email address devoted to the problem. *Ohio


cyclists can send email to *describing


the problem at the sensor. *They'll contact the responsible party to


get it adjusted. *I've not tried this myself (the ones I pass seem to


work well for me) but I've heard others have had good success. *Other


states should do something similar.




It's a lot less hassle to just ride across when it's clear.




Some people try to fix problems, some people don't.




Enough people quietly following a path create change.

You are too far up on your high horse to see this.


Michael, please explain how enough cyclists quietly riding through red lights would spontaneously get the lights' sensors to detect cyclists. Seems to me it would require _someone_ to tell _someone_ about the problem.

What magic did you have in mind?

- Frank Krygowski
  #104  
Old April 17th 13, 08:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Dan O
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,098
Default Statisitics

On Apr 17, 7:30*am, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:51:38 AM UTC-4, Michael Press wrote:
In article


,


*Frank Krygowski wrote:


Ohio DOT now has an email address devoted to the problem. *Ohio


cyclists can send email to *describing


the problem at the sensor. *They'll contact the responsible party to


get it adjusted. *I've not tried this myself (the ones I pass seem to


work well for me) but I've heard others have had good success. *Other


states should do something similar.


It's a lot less hassle to just ride across when it's clear.


Some people try to fix problems, some people don't.


Enough people quietly following a path create change.


You are too far up on your high horse to see this.


Michael, please explain how enough cyclists quietly riding through red lights would spontaneously get the lights' sensors to detect cyclists. *Seems to me it would require _someone_ to tell _someone_ about the problem.


If bicyclists keep riding through the red light and nobody tells
anybody, is there a problem?

snip

  #105  
Old April 17th 13, 09:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Statisitics

On 4/17/2013 2:11 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Apr 17, 7:30 am, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:51:38 AM UTC-4, Michael Press wrote:
In article


,


Frank Krygowski wrote:


Ohio DOT now has an email address devoted to the problem. Ohio


cyclists can send email to describing


the problem at the sensor. They'll contact the responsible party to


get it adjusted. I've not tried this myself (the ones I pass seem to


work well for me) but I've heard others have had good success. Other


states should do something similar.


It's a lot less hassle to just ride across when it's clear.


Some people try to fix problems, some people don't.


Enough people quietly following a path create change.


You are too far up on your high horse to see this.


Michael, please explain how enough cyclists quietly riding through red lights would spontaneously get the lights' sensors to detect cyclists. Seems to me it would require _someone_ to tell _someone_ about the problem.


If bicyclists keep riding through the red light and nobody tells
anybody, is there a problem?

snip


That's a question for Schroedinger.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #106  
Old April 18th 13, 12:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,900
Default Statisitics

On 4/17/2013 4:30 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/17/2013 2:11 PM, Dan O wrote:
On Apr 17, 7:30 am, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:51:38 AM UTC-4, Michael Press wrote:
In article

,

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Ohio DOT now has an email address devoted to the problem. Ohio

cyclists can send email to describing

the problem at the sensor. They'll contact the responsible party to

get it adjusted. I've not tried this myself (the ones I pass seem to

work well for me) but I've heard others have had good success. Other

states should do something similar.

It's a lot less hassle to just ride across when it's clear.

Some people try to fix problems, some people don't.

Enough people quietly following a path create change.

You are too far up on your high horse to see this.

Michael, please explain how enough cyclists quietly riding through
red lights would spontaneously get the lights' sensors to detect
cyclists. Seems to me it would require _someone_ to tell _someone_
about the problem.


If bicyclists keep riding through the red light and nobody tells
anybody, is there a problem?

snip


That's a question for Schroedinger.


Or his cat.
  #107  
Old April 18th 13, 04:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Statisitics

On Apr 18, 2:07*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article ,









wrote:
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:51:38 AM UTC-4, Michael Press wrote:
In article


,


*Frank Krygowski wrote:


Ohio DOT now has an email address devoted to the problem. *Ohio


cyclists can send email to *describing


the problem at the sensor. *They'll contact the responsible party to


get it adjusted. *I've not tried this myself (the ones I pass seem to


work well for me) but I've heard others have had good success. *Other


states should do something similar.


It's a lot less hassle to just ride across when it's clear.


Some people try to fix problems, some people don't.


Enough people quietly following a path create change.


You are too far up on your high horse to see this.


Michael, please explain how enough cyclists quietly riding through red lights would spontaneously get the lights' sensors to detect cyclists. *Seems to me it would require _someone_ to tell _someone_ about the problem.


What magic did you have in mind?


It's your question.


You seem to have no answer.

- Frank Krygowski
  #108  
Old April 18th 13, 05:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jay Beattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,322
Default Statisitics

On Apr 18, 8:11*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Apr 18, 2:07*am, Michael Press wrote:









In article ,


wrote:
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:51:38 AM UTC-4, Michael Press wrote:
In article


,


*Frank Krygowski wrote:


Ohio DOT now has an email address devoted to the problem. *Ohio


cyclists can send email to *describing


the problem at the sensor. *They'll contact the responsible party to


get it adjusted. *I've not tried this myself (the ones I pass seem to


work well for me) but I've heard others have had good success.. *Other


states should do something similar.


It's a lot less hassle to just ride across when it's clear.


Some people try to fix problems, some people don't.


Enough people quietly following a path create change.


You are too far up on your high horse to see this.


Michael, please explain how enough cyclists quietly riding through red lights would spontaneously get the lights' sensors to detect cyclists. *Seems to me it would require _someone_ to tell _someone_ about the problem.


What magic did you have in mind?


It's your question.


You seem to have no answer.


If conduct becomes so prevalent that prohibition is impossible, then
prohibition will stop, either because government does not have the
resources to prosecute the violators or because legislators will
eventually get the picture and change the law. That doesn't help
those who were prosecuted, though -- and I doubt that running non-
responsive lights will become so prevalent that prohibition, viz.,
enforcement of the traffic laws, will stop. The smart approach is to
get the ear of a legislator, propose some legislation and change the
laws. It's much easier than one might think, particularly in a
smallish state like Oregon. I just have to sit down and write a bill
and then dump it on one of my legislator acquaintances and see if I
can get some traction.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #109  
Old April 18th 13, 08:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,511
Default Statisitics

On Apr 18, 12:06*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Apr 18, 8:11*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:









On Apr 18, 2:07*am, Michael Press wrote:


In article ,


wrote:
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:51:38 AM UTC-4, Michael Press wrote:
In article


,


*Frank Krygowski wrote:


Ohio DOT now has an email address devoted to the problem. *Ohio


cyclists can send email to *describing


the problem at the sensor. *They'll contact the responsible party to


get it adjusted. *I've not tried this myself (the ones I pass seem to


work well for me) but I've heard others have had good success. *Other


states should do something similar.


It's a lot less hassle to just ride across when it's clear.


Some people try to fix problems, some people don't.


Enough people quietly following a path create change.


You are too far up on your high horse to see this.


Michael, please explain how enough cyclists quietly riding through red lights would spontaneously get the lights' sensors to detect cyclists. *Seems to me it would require _someone_ to tell _someone_ about the problem.


What magic did you have in mind?


It's your question.


You seem to have no answer.


If conduct becomes so prevalent that prohibition is impossible, then
prohibition will stop, either because government does not have the
resources to prosecute the violators or because legislators will
eventually get the picture and change the law. *That doesn't help
those who were prosecuted, though -- and I doubt that running non-
responsive lights will become so prevalent that prohibition, viz.,
enforcement of the traffic laws, will stop. *The smart approach is to
get the ear of a legislator, propose some legislation and change the
laws. *It's much easier than one might think, particularly in a
smallish state like Oregon. *I just have to sit down and write a bill
and then dump it on one of my legislator acquaintances and see if I
can get some traction.


That's what we're working on here in Ohio, too. We just missed a
chance at an almost automatic law improvement, via an amendment in the
state's budget bill, so we're back to collecting sponsors and co-
sponsors.

Another avenue would be to lobby for inclusion of a bicycle test
standard in the manual and/or the official state procedure for setting
sensitivity of traffic light detectors. I think it's probably best to
work on both of those fronts.

And I think it's best to pay no mind to the people who mock efforts to
make things better for cyclists.

- Frank Krygowski

 




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