Need advice on bottom bracket repair

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

:I want to know why it works at least twice as good as the others on
:the list.

My experience is that it doesn't. That's just one of the reasons no
one puts it in a can and sells it commercially. I read the original
article, a long time ago, and as I recall the testing method was about
as scientfic as drawing lots.

Commercial penetrating oils are far superior.

--
sig 14

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On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
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On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
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On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but
the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter
turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no
flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin
spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for
me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive
pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily
deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a
few
strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time
that
way.

Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a
couple
of
spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for.
Quenching
the
hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying
it
on
cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup.

It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner.

Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!!

If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it
either.

I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot
and
give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit
at
a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin spanner.
Are
you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank?

Sorry - I forgot you were that thick.

I'll draw pictures next time.

So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes sense.

Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it up -
but somehow you always seem to manage.

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side, but
the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a quarter
turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no
flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a pin
spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for
me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive
pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can easily
deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a
few
strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time
that
way.

Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a
couple
of
spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for.
Quenching
the
hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just spraying
it
on
cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup.

It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner.

Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!!

If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it
either.

I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot
and
give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit
at
a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin spanner.
Are
you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank?

Sorry - I forgot you were that thick.

I'll draw pictures next time.

So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes sense.

Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it up -
but somehow you always seem to manage.

Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner with a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't count?

wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side,
but
the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a
quarter
turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no
flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a
pin
spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for
me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive
pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily
deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm
not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil
and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it
a
few
strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a
time
that
way.

Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a
couple
of
spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for.
Quenching
the
hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just
spraying
it
on
cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup.

It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner.

Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!!

If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it
either.

I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot
and
give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out
bit
at
a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin
spanner.
Are
you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank?

Sorry - I forgot you were that thick.

I'll draw pictures next time.

So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes
sense.

Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it up -
but somehow you always seem to manage.

Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer
after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner with
a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't count?

I didn't say hit the pin spanner with a hammer - you did.

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:43:33 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:01:31 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side,
but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a
quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further.
It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for
turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of
force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice
for me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle
expensive pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm
not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating
oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

As a last resort, once I simply pulled out the bottom bracket
via the fixed side and then spend half a day cutting the
adjustable cup with a hacksaw blade up to but not touching the
threads. This allowed the cup to collapse partially when the pin
spanner was applied and come loose.

If you have an aluminum frame and BB you cannot leave them
outside in the winter and should not ride through water deep
enough to threaten the integrity of the coupling.

By the way - you ARE turning the adjustable cup off clockwise
aren't you?

No, counterclockwise--same direction the lockring came off, and
the direction that every website I looked at called for. As I
understand it, the fixed cup may be threaded the other direction.

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 14:59:56 -0800 (PST),
DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 12:59:14 PM UTC-5, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 08:56:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Ted, I don't quite follow. You are talking about using a
pin spanner and then say that you need to get the
adjustable cup off first. Isn't that what we were talking
about? The lock nut on the adjustable side and the fixed
cup do not use pin spanners as far as I know.

Sorry. I have the lock ring off on the left, non-drive side,
and am left with an adjustable cup that will only turn
partway. The fixed cup is still in place too (on the other
side), so the spindle is in place and blocks putting in the
bolt and nut that Sheldon describes.

For what it's worth, the fixed cup also seems to be pretty
stuck. It's an aluminum frame, so presumably the shell is
aluminum too and there may be some corrosion in the interface
between the two different metals of the shell and the cups?

if you search on aluminum/steel frame/shells/cups install or
remove there should be an avalanche of umbrage.

if your system shows white material in joints then poss an
ionic binding occurred between steel and aluminum. Andy Muzi is
an expert on this.

Blaster does not dissolve the white material. Uneeda torch and
another pin tool.

expanding aluminum with torch or heat gun will remove the cup.

Okay, I will try heating too.

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:46:39 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 10:47:48 AM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:11:45 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 1:14:21 PM UTC-8,
Benderthe.evilrobot
wrote:
"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side,
but
the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a
quarter
turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further. It has no
flats for a wrench instead having holes for turning with a
pin
spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice for
me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle expensive
pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily
deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm
not
able to get things off with the addition of penetrating oil
and
time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it
a
few
strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a
time
that
way.

Once I had to shift a seized in pedal shaft, after snapping a
couple
of
spanners - I welded on the biggest nut I had a spanner for.
Quenching
the
hot steel with penetrating oil did slightly more than just
spraying
it
on
cold. The same approach would probably work with a BB cup.

It is extremely bad practice to hammer a pin spanner.

Who said anything about hammering a pin spanner?!!!

If you can't be bothered reading a post - don't bother answering it
either.

I might suggest "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot
and
give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out
bit
at
a time that way." sounds an awful lot like hammering on a pin
spanner.
Are
you supposing we're discussing removing pedals from a crank?

Sorry - I forgot you were that thick.

I'll draw pictures next time.

So you meant something other than what you wrote. Well that makes
sense.

Its so simple it just never occurred to me that anyone could **** it up -
but somehow you always seem to manage.

Then perhaps you can explain how you didn't say to hit it with a hammer
after writing for everyone to see you suggest hitting the pin spanner with
a hammer? Did you mean that unless you vocalize it, that it doesn't count?

I didn't say hit the pin spanner with a hammer - you did.

Then exactly how is it that you can't explain your posting: "At that stage; I'd turn it as far as the tight spot and give it a few strikes with a hammer. sometimes you can ease it out bit at a time that way." Are you suggesting he was turning it out with his fingers?

"Theodore Heise" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 17:01:01 -0800,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:31:15 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(...)

Yet another untested idea...

Use an induction heater on the steel cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZEaPQinO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJElT9xK3bk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uimEZKrVNO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1IBgefNDs [1]
http://www.theinductor.com
You'll need various size coils for different bolts, cups, seat posts,
etc. There are induction heater kits on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-ZVS-Low-Voltage-Induction-Heating-Board-Module-Flyback-Heater-Brass-Coil-/282317713643
The steel cup gets hot and not so much the rest of the bicycle,
including the aluminum bottom bracket which sucks away much of the
heat. However, you can get the steel hot enough to melt the aluminum,
so please use an IR thermometer to keep the temperatures down.
Aluminum melts at 660C.

Yikes!

An electric heat gun is safer than a blowtorch - but I think you still have
to be a bit careful.

The heavy duty paint strippers aren't too bad, but some heat guns are
designed for lighting solid fuel cooking ranges.

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 2:15:41 PM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 8 Jan 2017 10:43:33 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:01:31 AM UTC-8, Theodore Heise wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jan 2017 11:08:20 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2017 8:33 PM, Theodore Heise wrote:
Hi all,

I have an early 1990s Rodriguez tandem with a rear bottom
bracket in serious need of overhaul. The cranks flop
severely.

I've pulled the cranks and the lock ring on the left side,
but the adjustable cup won't come out. It turns about a
quarter turn, but then gets too stiff to turn further.
It has no flats for a wrench instead having holes for
turning with a pin spanner--so I'm unable to put a lot of
force on it.

I've soaked it with WD40, but still no joy. Any advice
for me?

Delco 10.4020 penetrant is the best, PC Blaster is good.
Warming with a heat gun can help.

If no other path, flats can be cut on the cup with a disc
grinder to allow a wrench instead of those brittle
expensive pins.

p.s. Try the right side cup too. If that moves, you can
easily deal with the left one after disasssembly.

Thanks for the added tips. Off to get penetrating oil and new
pins now. Grinding on it is beyond my abilities, so if I'm
not able to get things off with the addition of penetrating
oil and time, I'll be hauling it off to my LBS.

As a last resort, once I simply pulled out the bottom bracket
via the fixed side and then spend half a day cutting the
adjustable cup with a hacksaw blade up to but not touching the
threads. This allowed the cup to collapse partially when the pin
spanner was applied and come loose.

If you have an aluminum frame and BB you cannot leave them
outside in the winter and should not ride through water deep
enough to threaten the integrity of the coupling.

By the way - you ARE turning the adjustable cup off clockwise
aren't you?

No, counterclockwise--same direction the lockring came off, and
the direction that every website I looked at called for. As I
understand it, the fixed cup may be threaded the other direction.

--
Ted Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

Uh, Ted, what does the lock ring and the fixed cup have stamped on them? Unless your Tandem is Italian the bottom bracket is probably either French of most probably English. That means that the adjustable side (left ride looking forward) will be threaded BACKWARDS. And it will unwind in a clockwise direction.

That is one of the most common errors of people taking bottom brackets out for the first half dozen times.