At least 5 dead , 9 injured after pickup truck hits bicyclists from BEHIND

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:54:14 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:47, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:40 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/10/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing
lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.

Sounds like you must have gotten into many "critical situations"
before.
Otherwise you couldn't know they had dropped off greatly.


I hear a car coming from the rear and it is very easy to discern whether
the braking process is a hard one or a normal one. Now they are almost
all normal, typically where people just let go of the accelerator pedal.


To me, that's very odd. I can't remember the last time I got in a
"critical situation" on my bike. Perhaps that has something to do with
riding style?


No, with the roads out here and I am not the only one. I've met people
who even invested in Dinotte rear lights to the tune of more than $100
and reported similar results.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What if the car/truck is coming up behind you and NOT braking?

Cheers


As seems likely in this case since he hit 9 of them.


No. We don't know that.

Quote from OP link: "Witnesses in the area tell us they saw the group
and heard the squealing of tires".

We do not know whether this squealing started before impact, after
impact or whenever. Police investigators will know the answer. But we
might never because nowadays journalism typically ends with the key
story and that's it. There needs to be a follow-up.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Are you ****ing serious? They were hit from BEHIND. There were NINE bicyclists riding in a GROUP on a STRAIGHT section of road and this driver hit ALL NINE of them killing five and injuring four - two of them seriously.

You're absolutely and inconceivably wrong about this joerg. Unbelievable!

Cheers

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 2:02:25 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:53, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:02, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 07:54, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-07 21:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



"KALAMAZOO COUNTY, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - Newschannel 3 has learned
that at least five people have been killed on North Westnedge, near
Markin Glen Park, just north of Kalamazoo, after a group of
bicyclists were struck from behind by a blue Chevy pickup truck.

It happened around 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening.

All of those killed were bicyclists riding down the road when a
pickup truck came up behind them, and struck the group."

More here

http://wwmt.com/news/local/multiple-...illed-in-crash

Condolences to the victims' families and friends.


Very sad.

One question is whether we will ever hear the results of the
investigation. Such as lane positions, lighting of the riders,
visibility, level of intoxication of the driver, speed of the truck,
and
so on.

Without such follow-up it's hard to learn from these case. I have
even
seen people flat-out deny that it was a non-intersection lane case
in a
similar deadly crash here in Sacramento. No follow-up info as usual,
zero, but it all points to a cyclist having been in the left lane
(two
per direction) preparing to turn off somewhere when a drunk driver
in a
truck smashed into her and killed her.


Read the report. It was not an intersection and they were
apparently on
the shoulder.


Please quote where it said that.



It was stated in the original report posted here.


It was not. See link above. Please quote.

[...]


http://ktla.com/2016/06/07/at-least-...s-in-michigan/


Sorry, Andrew Muzi posted this at the same time. It's in this one.


Ok, thanks. If the county attorney said that he must know since he
likely has access to the police report.


And regardless, they were hit from behind on a straight road.


Sure. But there are questions. Did the probably intoxicated driver not
see them at all? Did he see them too late? Did the last rider have a
highly visible rear light? Or did the driver deliberately run into them?

Some of those questions could be answered at this time.


What is there to learn here? Maybe if it was drunk driving and the
guy
had priors or maybe if the guy was psychotic and off his meds. But
from
the riders' points of view what is there to learn?


A lot. Just one example: I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused) drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing
lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.



Give me a ****ing break. At least 14 people in front of him on bikes,
and he would have seen them if only they had a light?


Quite possibly yes. On a straight stretch of road drivers often see only
the last rider or maybe the last 2-3. It is important to know these
things.

My bright lights are a reason why I am sometimes asked to ride last in a
group. Because that affords the whole group better safety.


Having you behind them? Maybe your jams are too loud when you are in
front of them. - sorry, could not resist.


Not sure what you mean with jams.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg, it appears that you are plain out and out trolling one this! Read the artices in the links I provided. They were hit from behind, on a straight section or road in broad daylight and that section of road had good sight lines!

Cheers

On 10/06/2016 2:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:53, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:02, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 07:54, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-07 21:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



"KALAMAZOO COUNTY, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - Newschannel 3 has
learned
that at least five people have been killed on North Westnedge, near
Markin Glen Park, just north of Kalamazoo, after a group of
bicyclists were struck from behind by a blue Chevy pickup truck.

It happened around 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening.

All of those killed were bicyclists riding down the road when a
pickup truck came up behind them, and struck the group."

More here

http://wwmt.com/news/local/multiple-...illed-in-crash

Condolences to the victims' families and friends.


Very sad.

One question is whether we will ever hear the results of the
investigation. Such as lane positions, lighting of the riders,
visibility, level of intoxication of the driver, speed of the truck,
and
so on.

Without such follow-up it's hard to learn from these case. I have
even
seen people flat-out deny that it was a non-intersection lane case
in a
similar deadly crash here in Sacramento. No follow-up info as usual,
zero, but it all points to a cyclist having been in the left lane
(two
per direction) preparing to turn off somewhere when a drunk driver
in a
truck smashed into her and killed her.


Read the report. It was not an intersection and they were
apparently on
the shoulder.


Please quote where it said that.



It was stated in the original report posted here.


It was not. See link above. Please quote.

[...]


http://ktla.com/2016/06/07/at-least-...s-in-michigan/



Sorry, Andrew Muzi posted this at the same time. It's in this one.


Ok, thanks. If the county attorney said that he must know since he
likely has access to the police report.


And regardless, they were hit from behind on a straight road.


Sure. But there are questions. Did the probably intoxicated driver not
see them at all? Did he see them too late? Did the last rider have a
highly visible rear light? Or did the driver deliberately run into them?

Some of those questions could be answered at this time.


All of your questions make it sound like the victims could or should
have have prevented this. Even if you buy the red blinky in the daytime
thing, that's bull****. The driver is solely responsible for hitting
someone from behind.


What is there to learn here? Maybe if it was drunk driving and the
guy
had priors or maybe if the guy was psychotic and off his meds. But
from
the riders' points of view what is there to learn?


A lot. Just one example: I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing
lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.



Give me a ****ing break. At least 14 people in front of him on bikes,
and he would have seen them if only they had a light?


Quite possibly yes. On a straight stretch of road drivers often see only
the last rider or maybe the last 2-3. It is important to know these
things.

My bright lights are a reason why I am sometimes asked to ride last in a
group. Because that affords the whole group better safety.


Having you behind them? Maybe your jams are too loud when you are in
front of them. - sorry, could not resist.


Not sure what you mean with jams.


Music.

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:43:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:40, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/10/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused) drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no, cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.

Sounds like you must have gotten into many "critical situations" before.
Otherwise you couldn't know they had dropped off greatly.


I hear a car coming from the rear and it is very easy to discern whether
the braking process is a hard one or a normal one. Now they are almost
all normal, typically where people just let go of the accelerator pedal.


To me, that's very odd. I can't remember the last time I got in a
"critical situation" on my bike. Perhaps that has something to do with
riding style?


No, with the roads out here and I am not the only one. I've met people
who even invested in Dinotte rear lights to the tune of more than $100
and reported similar results.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What if the car/truck is coming up behind you and NOT braking?


You typically die or get hurt badly. Hence my preference for segregated
bike paths.

Or the truck passes. Do you not get passed by trucks?

The change of that happening while riding on roads is reduced with
bright lighting. Hence I ride with daytime lights. Always.

O.K. Just a digression, but I was riding to work today on a busy road with lots of trucks, buses and cars -- I often post the video of SW Barbur Boulevard with those narrow bridges that put cyclists in the lane. PDOT installed flashers at the bridges with induction loop switches that, for some reason, my plastic Roubaix (which I rode today) will not trip. http://bikeportland.org/2014/03/07/o...xt-week-102600

I didn't trip the flashers this morning, and you know what, I was kind of scared. I was going over this narrow bridge with big trucks and cars and buses without any rear flasher and without the benefit of the big, new flashers. I could die! And then I thought, hey, I've been riding on this road for 32 years without giant flashers. I'm wearing a neon yellow/green rain jersey. I'm riding conspicuously. 20 years ago, I didn't have any bike facilities and rode a fog line all the way to downtown.

I like my bike facilities, and the flasher is a nice touch -- except the loop is too close to the bridge and it makes bicyclist jump out at the last minute. But its a nice idea, just poorly implemented. Points for being kind, PDOT. Demerits for being stupid for location and sensitivity. Everyone is not on an iron Mao bike.

Anyway, I lived. The bottom line is that crazy drunks can kill you on a sidewalk, on a separate bike facility . . . in your f****** bed. Google "car drives through [house, barn, store, etc., etc.]

-- Jay Beattie.

On 10/06/2016 2:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:43:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:40, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/10/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused) drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no, cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.

Sounds like you must have gotten into many "critical situations" before.
Otherwise you couldn't know they had dropped off greatly.


I hear a car coming from the rear and it is very easy to discern whether
the braking process is a hard one or a normal one. Now they are almost
all normal, typically where people just let go of the accelerator pedal.


To me, that's very odd. I can't remember the last time I got in a
"critical situation" on my bike. Perhaps that has something to do with
riding style?


No, with the roads out here and I am not the only one. I've met people
who even invested in Dinotte rear lights to the tune of more than $100
and reported similar results.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What if the car/truck is coming up behind you and NOT braking?


You typically die or get hurt badly. Hence my preference for segregated
bike paths.

Or the truck passes. Do you not get passed by trucks?

The change of that happening while riding on roads is reduced with
bright lighting. Hence I ride with daytime lights. Always.

O.K. Just a digression, but I was riding to work today on a busy road with lots of trucks, buses and cars -- I often post the video of SW Barbur Boulevard with those narrow bridges that put cyclists in the lane. PDOT installed flashers at the bridges with induction loop switches that, for some reason, my plastic Roubaix (which I rode today) will not trip. http://bikeportland.org/2014/03/07/o...xt-week-102600

I didn't trip the flashers this morning, and you know what, I was kind of scared. I was going over this narrow bridge with big trucks and cars and buses without any rear flasher and without the benefit of the big, new flashers. I could die! And then I thought, hey, I've been riding on this road for 32 years without giant flashers. I'm wearing a neon yellow/green rain jersey. I'm riding conspicuously. 20 years ago, I didn't have any bike facilities and rode a fog line all the way to downtown.

I like my bike facilities, and the flasher is a nice touch -- except the loop is too close to the bridge and it makes bicyclist jump out at the last minute. But its a nice idea, just poorly implemented. Points for being kind, PDOT. Demerits for being stupid for location and sensitivity. Everyone is not on an iron Mao bike.

Anyway, I lived. The bottom line is that crazy drunks can kill you on a sidewalk, on a separate bike facility . . . in your f****** bed. Google "car drives through [house, barn, store, etc., etc.]



Jay maybe you can explain to Joerg about contributory negligence.

"Well your honor my client may have been slightly over the legal limit
but these 9 brightly colored cyclists stretch out in front of him on a
clear straight well lit road really should have had a little blinking
red light if they wanted to be safe..."

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 2:42:59 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 2:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:53, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:02, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 07:54, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-07 21:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



"KALAMAZOO COUNTY, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - Newschannel 3 has
learned
that at least five people have been killed on North Westnedge, near
Markin Glen Park, just north of Kalamazoo, after a group of
bicyclists were struck from behind by a blue Chevy pickup truck.

It happened around 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening.

All of those killed were bicyclists riding down the road when a
pickup truck came up behind them, and struck the group."

More here

http://wwmt.com/news/local/multiple-...illed-in-crash

Condolences to the victims' families and friends.


Very sad.

One question is whether we will ever hear the results of the
investigation. Such as lane positions, lighting of the riders,
visibility, level of intoxication of the driver, speed of the truck,
and
so on.

Without such follow-up it's hard to learn from these case. I have
even
seen people flat-out deny that it was a non-intersection lane case
in a
similar deadly crash here in Sacramento. No follow-up info as usual,
zero, but it all points to a cyclist having been in the left lane
(two
per direction) preparing to turn off somewhere when a drunk driver
in a
truck smashed into her and killed her.


Read the report. It was not an intersection and they were
apparently on
the shoulder.


Please quote where it said that.



It was stated in the original report posted here.


It was not. See link above. Please quote.

[...]


http://ktla.com/2016/06/07/at-least-...s-in-michigan/



Sorry, Andrew Muzi posted this at the same time. It's in this one.


Ok, thanks. If the county attorney said that he must know since he
likely has access to the police report.


And regardless, they were hit from behind on a straight road.


Sure. But there are questions. Did the probably intoxicated driver not
see them at all? Did he see them too late? Did the last rider have a
highly visible rear light? Or did the driver deliberately run into them?

Some of those questions could be answered at this time.


All of your questions make it sound like the victims could or should
have have prevented this. Even if you buy the red blinky in the daytime
thing, that's bull****. The driver is solely responsible for hitting
someone from behind.


What is there to learn here? Maybe if it was drunk driving and the
guy
had priors or maybe if the guy was psychotic and off his meds. But
from
the riders' points of view what is there to learn?


A lot. Just one example: I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing
lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.



Give me a ****ing break. At least 14 people in front of him on bikes,
and he would have seen them if only they had a light?


Quite possibly yes. On a straight stretch of road drivers often see only
the last rider or maybe the last 2-3. It is important to know these
things.

My bright lights are a reason why I am sometimes asked to ride last in a
group. Because that affords the whole group better safety.


Having you behind them? Maybe your jams are too loud when you are in
front of them. - sorry, could not resist.


Not sure what you mean with jams.


Music.

I think the State Senator nailed it when she said: "This page has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/

"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien, R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."

Note that she's calling it a "random attack" not an accident or crash?

Cheers

On 2016-06-10 11:42, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 2:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:53, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:02, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 07:54, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-07 21:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



"KALAMAZOO COUNTY, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - Newschannel 3 has
learned
that at least five people have been killed on North Westnedge,
near
Markin Glen Park, just north of Kalamazoo, after a group of
bicyclists were struck from behind by a blue Chevy pickup truck.

It happened around 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening.

All of those killed were bicyclists riding down the road when a
pickup truck came up behind them, and struck the group."

More here

http://wwmt.com/news/local/multiple-...illed-in-crash

Condolences to the victims' families and friends.


Very sad.

One question is whether we will ever hear the results of the
investigation. Such as lane positions, lighting of the riders,
visibility, level of intoxication of the driver, speed of the
truck,
and
so on.

Without such follow-up it's hard to learn from these case. I have
even
seen people flat-out deny that it was a non-intersection lane case
in a
similar deadly crash here in Sacramento. No follow-up info as
usual,
zero, but it all points to a cyclist having been in the left lane
(two
per direction) preparing to turn off somewhere when a drunk driver
in a
truck smashed into her and killed her.


Read the report. It was not an intersection and they were
apparently on
the shoulder.


Please quote where it said that.



It was stated in the original report posted here.


It was not. See link above. Please quote.

[...]


http://ktla.com/2016/06/07/at-least-...s-in-michigan/




Sorry, Andrew Muzi posted this at the same time. It's in this one.


Ok, thanks. If the county attorney said that he must know since he
likely has access to the police report.


And regardless, they were hit from behind on a straight road.


Sure. But there are questions. Did the probably intoxicated driver not
see them at all? Did he see them too late? Did the last rider have a
highly visible rear light? Or did the driver deliberately run into them?

Some of those questions could be answered at this time.


All of your questions make it sound like the victims could or should
have have prevented this. Even if you buy the red blinky in the daytime
thing, that's bull****. The driver is solely responsible for hitting
someone from behind.


Sure he is. I never disputed that. The question is whether at least some
of those situations can be prevented.

Here we have a road that is straight and lined with thick foliage.
Perfect place for intoxicated drivers to fall into a daze. Yes, it is
the truck driver's fault. But it is always good on a bicycle to stick
out. That's what a bright blinking light does and that's why both my
bikes have that. Actually several each.



What is there to learn here? Maybe if it was drunk driving and the
guy
had priors or maybe if the guy was psychotic and off his meds. But
from
the riders' points of view what is there to learn?


A lot. Just one example: I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing
lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.



Give me a ****ing break. At least 14 people in front of him on bikes,
and he would have seen them if only they had a light?


Quite possibly yes. On a straight stretch of road drivers often see
only
the last rider or maybe the last 2-3. It is important to know these
things.

My bright lights are a reason why I am sometimes asked to ride last
in a
group. Because that affords the whole group better safety.


Having you behind them? Maybe your jams are too loud when you are in
front of them. - sorry, could not resist.


Not sure what you mean with jams.


Music.


Usually turned off when around others. But it has happened that someone
snuck up and wanted to listen to the Bluegrass tunes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 11:42, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 2:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:53, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:02, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 07:54, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-07 21:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



"KALAMAZOO COUNTY, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) - Newschannel 3 has
learned
that at least five people have been killed on North Westnedge,
near
Markin Glen Park, just north of Kalamazoo, after a group of
bicyclists were struck from behind by a blue Chevy pickup truck.

It happened around 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening.

All of those killed were bicyclists riding down the road when a
pickup truck came up behind them, and struck the group."

More here

http://wwmt.com/news/local/multiple-...illed-in-crash

Condolences to the victims' families and friends.


Very sad.

One question is whether we will ever hear the results of the
investigation. Such as lane positions, lighting of the riders,
visibility, level of intoxication of the driver, speed of the
truck,
and
so on.

Without such follow-up it's hard to learn from these case. I have
even
seen people flat-out deny that it was a non-intersection lane case
in a
similar deadly crash here in Sacramento. No follow-up info as
usual,
zero, but it all points to a cyclist having been in the left lane
(two
per direction) preparing to turn off somewhere when a drunk driver
in a
truck smashed into her and killed her.


Read the report. It was not an intersection and they were
apparently on
the shoulder.


Please quote where it said that.



It was stated in the original report posted here.


It was not. See link above. Please quote.

[...]


http://ktla.com/2016/06/07/at-least-...s-in-michigan/




Sorry, Andrew Muzi posted this at the same time. It's in this one.


Ok, thanks. If the county attorney said that he must know since he
likely has access to the police report.


And regardless, they were hit from behind on a straight road.


Sure. But there are questions. Did the probably intoxicated driver not
see them at all? Did he see them too late? Did the last rider have a
highly visible rear light? Or did the driver deliberately run into them?

Some of those questions could be answered at this time.


All of your questions make it sound like the victims could or should
have have prevented this. Even if you buy the red blinky in the daytime
thing, that's bull****. The driver is solely responsible for hitting
someone from behind.


Sure he is. I never disputed that. The question is whether at least some
of those situations can be prevented.

Here we have a road that is straight and lined with thick foliage.
Perfect place for intoxicated drivers to fall into a daze. Yes, it is
the truck driver's fault. But it is always good on a bicycle to stick
out. That's what a bright blinking light does and that's why both my
bikes have that. Actually several each.



What is there to learn here? Maybe if it was drunk driving and the
guy
had priors or maybe if the guy was psychotic and off his meds. But
from
the riders' points of view what is there to learn?


A lot. Just one example: I found that the number of times I got into
critical situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers
has greatly dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons
is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one, sees red flashing
lights
in the distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!"
which in many cases will make them slow down.



Give me a ****ing break. At least 14 people in front of him on bikes,
and he would have seen them if only they had a light?


Quite possibly yes. On a straight stretch of road drivers often see
only
the last rider or maybe the last 2-3. It is important to know these
things.

My bright lights are a reason why I am sometimes asked to ride last
in a
group. Because that affords the whole group better safety.


Having you behind them? Maybe your jams are too loud when you are in
front of them. - sorry, could not resist.


Not sure what you mean with jams.


Music.


Usually turned off when around others. But it has happened that someone
snuck up and wanted to listen to the Bluegrass tunes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If a driver on a clear road in daylight on a straight road with good sight lines can't see a group of NINE bicyclists ahead of his vehicle there's no way in hell that he's going to see a blinking red light!

The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/

"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien, R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."

Cheers

On 2016-06-10 11:54, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 10:43:00 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:40, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 1:17:17 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/10/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
I found that the number of times I got into critical
situations because of inattentive (or possibly soused)
drivers has greatly dropped off since I have bright
lighting. One of the reasons is simple. If a driver,
especially a drunk one, sees red flashing lights in the
distance one of the first reactions will likely be "Oh no,
cops!" which in many cases will make them slow down.

Sounds like you must have gotten into many "critical
situations" before. Otherwise you couldn't know they had
dropped off greatly.


I hear a car coming from the rear and it is very easy to
discern whether the braking process is a hard one or a normal
one. Now they are almost all normal, typically where people
just let go of the accelerator pedal.


To me, that's very odd. I can't remember the last time I got
in a "critical situation" on my bike. Perhaps that has
something to do with riding style?


No, with the roads out here and I am not the only one. I've met
people who even invested in Dinotte rear lights to the tune of
more than $100 and reported similar results.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

What if the car/truck is coming up behind you and NOT braking?


You typically die or get hurt badly. Hence my preference for
segregated bike paths.

Or the truck passes. Do you not get passed by trucks?


Sure they do. But sometimes they can't and then I prefer my lights to
alert them in a timely manner that I am in the lane.


The change of that happening while riding on roads is reduced with
bright lighting. Hence I ride with daytime lights. Always.

O.K. Just a digression, but I was riding to work today on a busy
road with lots of trucks, buses and cars -- I often post the video of
SW Barbur Boulevard with those narrow bridges that put cyclists in
the lane. PDOT installed flashers at the bridges with induction loop
switches that, for some reason, my plastic Roubaix (which I rode
today) will not trip.
http://bikeportland.org/2014/03/07/o...xt-week-102600

I didn't trip the flashers this morning, and you know what, I was
kind of scared. I was going over this narrow bridge with big trucks
and cars and buses without any rear flasher and without the benefit
of the big, new flashers. I could die! And then I thought, hey,
I've been riding on this road for 32 years without giant flashers.
I'm wearing a neon yellow/green rain jersey. I'm riding
conspicuously. 20 years ago, I didn't have any bike facilities and
rode a fog line all the way to downtown.


That is probably what some of the Kalamazoo riders thought as well.
Until Tuesday :-(

It's the same argument that people used when they were ranting against
having to wear safety belts in their cars. After all, grandpa didn't
even have belts in his DeSoto and he lived to a ripe old age.


I like my bike facilities, and the flasher is a nice touch -- except
the loop is too close to the bridge and it makes bicyclist jump out
at the last minute. But its a nice idea, just poorly implemented.
Points for being kind, PDOT. Demerits for being stupid for location
and sensitivity. Everyone is not on an iron Mao bike.


The Gazelle steel frame on my early 80's road bike also doesn't trip
some loops. I've even had cases where laying it didn't trigger. Which is
a major inconvenience when that is for a left turn at a traffic light.
The designers of such loop circuits don't always seem to be the
brightest bulbs in the chandelier.


Anyway, I lived. The bottom line is that crazy drunks can kill you
on a sidewalk, on a separate bike facility . . . in your f****** bed.
Google "car drives through [house, barn, store, etc., etc.]


Now I'd like to see how a car would hit me on my way to Placerville on
this route:

http://www.mtbproject.com/photos/mtb...1371328168.jpg

There is only one car in Davis which could theoretically crash into me
but even that would require a tight squeeze:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY85eExk7Zo

Last Friday I went up there. Over 20 miles of peace and quiet. Birds
chirping, squirrels running up trees, no cars. It is absolutely
relaxing, assuming one can properly handle a mountain bike on loose rocks.

Same on Monday when I took the El Dorado Trail trail west. About the
only danger you have to watch out for on this route is this and it is
very ra

http://inedc.com/1-5954.html

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2016-06-10 12:13, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, June 10, 2016 at 3:07:28 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 11:42, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 2:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:53, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 1:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 10:02, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 12:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-10 07:54, Duane wrote:
On 10/06/2016 10:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-06-07 21:56, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



"KALAMAZOO COUNTY, Mich. (NEWSCHANNEL 3) -
Newschannel 3 has learned that at least five
people have been killed on North Westnedge, near
Markin Glen Park, just north of Kalamazoo, after
a group of bicyclists were struck from behind by
a blue Chevy pickup truck.

It happened around 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening.

All of those killed were bicyclists riding down
the road when a pickup truck came up behind them,
and struck the group."

More here

http://wwmt.com/news/local/multiple-...illed-in-crash



Condolences to the victims' families and friends.


Very sad.

One question is whether we will ever hear the
results of the investigation. Such as lane
positions, lighting of the riders, visibility,
level of intoxication of the driver, speed of the
truck, and so on.

Without such follow-up it's hard to learn from
these case. I have even seen people flat-out deny
that it was a non-intersection lane case in a
similar deadly crash here in Sacramento. No
follow-up info as usual, zero, but it all points to
a cyclist having been in the left lane (two per
direction) preparing to turn off somewhere when a
drunk driver in a truck smashed into her and killed
her.


Read the report. It was not an intersection and they
were apparently on the shoulder.


Please quote where it said that.



It was stated in the original report posted here.


It was not. See link above. Please quote.

[...]


http://ktla.com/2016/06/07/at-least-...s-in-michigan/






Sorry, Andrew Muzi posted this at the same time. It's in this one.


Ok, thanks. If the county attorney said that he must know since
he likely has access to the police report.


And regardless, they were hit from behind on a straight
road.


Sure. But there are questions. Did the probably intoxicated
driver not see them at all? Did he see them too late? Did the
last rider have a highly visible rear light? Or did the driver
deliberately run into them?

Some of those questions could be answered at this time.


All of your questions make it sound like the victims could or
should have have prevented this. Even if you buy the red blinky
in the daytime thing, that's bull****. The driver is solely
responsible for hitting someone from behind.


Sure he is. I never disputed that. The question is whether at least
some of those situations can be prevented.

Here we have a road that is straight and lined with thick foliage.
Perfect place for intoxicated drivers to fall into a daze. Yes, it
is the truck driver's fault. But it is always good on a bicycle to
stick out. That's what a bright blinking light does and that's why
both my bikes have that. Actually several each.



What is there to learn here? Maybe if it was drunk
driving and the guy had priors or maybe if the guy
was psychotic and off his meds. But from the riders'
points of view what is there to learn?


A lot. Just one example: I found that the number of
times I got into critical situations because of
inattentive (or possibly soused) drivers has greatly
dropped off since I have bright lighting. One of the
reasons is simple. If a driver, especially a drunk one,
sees red flashing lights in the distance one of the
first reactions will likely be "Oh no, cops!" which in
many cases will make them slow down.



Give me a ****ing break. At least 14 people in front of
him on bikes, and he would have seen them if only they
had a light?


Quite possibly yes. On a straight stretch of road drivers
often see only the last rider or maybe the last 2-3. It is
important to know these things.

My bright lights are a reason why I am sometimes asked to
ride last in a group. Because that affords the whole group
better safety.


Having you behind them? Maybe your jams are too loud when
you are in front of them. - sorry, could not resist.


Not sure what you mean with jams.


Music.


Usually turned off when around others. But it has happened that
someone snuck up and wanted to listen to the Bluegrass tunes.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

If a driver on a clear road in daylight on a straight road with good
sight lines can't see a group of NINE bicyclists ahead of his vehicle
there's no way in hell that he's going to see a blinking red light!


Sure there is. First, nine cyclists are not riding abreast but most
likely single file. So the driver sees only one, or in his case possible
just one small fuzzy "obstruction" because he may have been intoxicated.
Road bikers ride at constant speed, close together and don't swerve much
so they can look like a static object to soused drivers.

A bright red blinking light is way different. It changes pattern, so
will be noticed much earlier. It is also often mistook for police
cruiser lights. A cop or maybe a sobriety checkpoint is the absolute
nightmare for an intoxicated driver and will get their attention unless
they are already in complete stupor.


The state Senator has a very interesting comment.

http://wincountry.com/news/articles/...-of-kalamazoo/

"UPDATE - 6/8 at 10:05 a.m.: State Sen. Margaret O' Brien,
R-Portage, has released a statement:

"Kalamazoo County has again experienced a senseless tragedy. Nine
people were randomly attacked while enjoying a bicycle ride. No
explanation can bring back the lives of the five people killed."


But not much news in terms of new facts or investigation results.
Whether it was a deliberate attack is speculation at this point. It's
possible though. There are people who hate cyclists and the threshold
towards acting out on that hate can drop with alcohol and drugs.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/