Yet another thread on chain cleaning

snip
Are there any precautions? Is it posible to "over-do it" with any of these
chemicals? (Aside from the dishwashing-machine powder)

I plan on soaking it for a couple of hours with frequent agitation, then
pouring out whatever I'm using into a jar for reuse, and filling the bottle
with water and shaking vigorously for a while, maybe changing the water a
few times to make sure I clean out all of the cleaning chemicals. Then
drying it with a rag and leaving it out to dry overnight before putting it
back on the bike and aplying PTFE lubricant with a narrow tube, letting it
work its way in, then wiping down with a rag.

How does that sound?

Thanks a lot,
Dani

I do not believe in using volatile solvents unless it is absolutely
necessary. Detergents and citrus cleaners are inexpensive, work very
well for cleaning chains and are easier on you and the environment.

I wanted to see if my chain cleaning ritual actually cleaned the chain
deep down around the pins, so here is what I did: I removed the dirty
chain then re-installed the quick link and held it in place with a
twisted piece of soft wire. This is to prevent the link from opening
with no tension on the chain. Then I did my usual cleansing ritual:
put chain in bottle, add hot water plus Simple Green, cap, shake, hold
for 15 minutes or longer, empty, repeat two or three times until the
liquid does not change color, rinse with hot water, and dry with a hot
air gun (a hair dryer works, but is slower.) Then I opened the quick
link to see if it was clean inside. It was. The pins were bright and
shiny as were the insides of the side plates. The exposed ends of the
inner links and the drawn bushings for the pins were also clean inside
and out.

So, I'm convinced that my easy, no volatile solvent method is fast and
effective. Much of the Simple Green can be re-used if it is saved.
Just allow the gunk to settle and decant the clean cleaner.

For lube, I've been using 20W 50 motor oil. It works very well and
lasts for hundreds of miles (probably much longer although I clean the
chain every 200 to 500 hundred miles so I don't know.) The motor oil
is messy. No matter how many times I wipe the chain after applying
the oil, I see a fine mist of oil on my back rim, especially for the
first 50 miles or so. Also, the oil attracts dirt. I wipe the chain
frequently, but I do not add more lube between cleanings. Under this
method, the chain never, never squeaks and always shifts smoothly.
There is no measurable chain wear after slightly less then 2K miles on
the chain.

I noticed that the lube that comes on new SRAM chains feels thick and
sticky. I also notice that it lasts forever and it attracts less dirt
then the motor oil. I found this in a head to head comparison as my
wife has the new SRAM chain and we ride together. Although it seems
counterintuitive, it has led me to try a thicker, sticker lube; chain
saw bar oil. I have not used it enough to form an opinion yet.

Sheldon Brown suggested the chain-in-the-bottle cleaning method I use.
Jobst Brandt suggested the lubing method.

Steve Shapiro

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:57:39 -0400, Rick Onanian
may have said:

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:07:44 GMT, Werehatrack
wrote:

I clean mine as I acquire used bikes, as I notice them getting really
cruddy, and as time permits. The last time that I actually *wore out*
a chain was in (if I recall correctly) 1971.

You haven't stretched any chains in the last 30 years?

From 1972 through early in 2000, my riding was infrequent to the point
that a year could go by without anything getting on the saddle of my
bike except some dust. This began to change when I picked up a used
MTB for my daughter just because it was cheap (I paid a whole buck for
it; I couldn't pass it up since it didn't even need tires) and *she*
decided that *we* needed to go riding. Since then, the bike stable
has grown from four units in various states of neglect to about a
dozen in regular use.

I rode my
mountain bike hard for one year and the chain stretched...since
then, I've changed the chain during related service enough times
that it hasn't had a chance to stretch.

Since I'm starting with chains in decent shape with good lube, doing
most of my riding on paved ways, and spreading the usage among several
units, I suspect that I will be a long time getting to the next worn
out chain.

[1] depending upon the bike owner involved, this could include
watching The Simpsons on TV.

That's a pretty good priority, but the problem is...all the tv
shows I want to watch come on when I'm asleep or riding. I'd
love to watch Ren & Stimpy now that it's back on the air, but
I never remember to, because I'm asleep before it comes on.

Never heard of a VCR and timed taping to view things later, then? Not
that watching TV is a better use of one's time than scratching the
cat's head, as at least two of ours will pointedly emphasize.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:16:50 GMT, Werehatrack
wrote:
Since I'm starting with chains in decent shape with good lube, doing
most of my riding on paved ways, and spreading the usage among several
units, I suspect that I will be a long time getting to the next worn
out chain.

Also, I forgot to mention that I weigh 210 and sometimes
crank pretty hard, and ride very rough terrain. I'm sure
that had *nothing* to do with it.

Never heard of a VCR and timed taping to view things later, then? Not
that watching TV is a better use of one's time than scratching the
cat's head, as at least two of ours will pointedly emphasize.

There's a couple more problems...I used to set any VCR
to do my dirty work, and it always worked. Now, it just
never seems to work, using VCRs that have worked for me
before. I'm getting kind of discouraged.

Anyway, my cat would agree, I should scratch her head
rather than watch TV.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
--
Rick Onanian

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:31:02 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
may have said:

I didn't bother saving the previous dirty WS because I figured
the grease was dissolved in it and would stay dissolved forever. The last
one I did leave in the bottle to use as the first rinse next time.

Don't discard it. Let it sit and the particulates will settle out,
leaving it stained but quite useful. Oil residue from used spirits
will do no harm, since it will be the same stuff that was lubricating
the chain to begin with, and the oil film will be really thin unless
the spirits have been used for scores of cleanings. You want to set
the bottle where it can stand at an angle to allow the solids to
settle into one corner so that you can pour off the spirit cleanly.

I cleaned the sprockets and chainrings, put it back on, gave it a liberal
spray of lube (I believe it is called Super Spray Lube or something, and
apparently it is recommended my the British Cycling Federation... so I guess
it can't be that bad, even if the PTFE claims are bogus.)

As stated, many good products have been promoted similarly; the
Pythons lampooned the practice at least once.

It would appear that it is getting rather close to half a rivet width off at
the 12 inch mark. (When at full tension from the derailer) How can this
be???

Some call it "stretch", those who have taken the chains apart and
examined them call it "wear". Half a rivet is about 1.5mm, which is
not at the replacement mark by some standards. I'd have no qualms
about leaving that one in service.

I checked the chain on my old bike (I cringed when I saw its state...
bearing in mind it was left in a relatively "clean" condition for storage)
It had barely any stretch, and I never cleaned that thing at all, with
anything, and lubricated it with WD-40 (*cringe*) then later Halfords chain
wax. I have done ~1,000 miles on it and that's after I bought it used! How
can this brand new chain be so stretched after only ~800mi from new?

Different riding conditions produce different results. Also, is it
possible that you've gained in strength and are thereby putting more
tension on the chain when pedalling now? More strain = more abarasion
by the dirt that's present = more wear; the equation is simple.

Is it possible that being so clean and free of heavy oil/gunk inside has
made it seem longer?

No.



--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

"Werehatrack" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:31:02 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
may have said:

It would appear that it is getting rather close to half a rivet width off
at
the 12 inch mark. (When at full tension from the derailer) How can this
be???

Some call it "stretch", those who have taken the chains apart and
examined them call it "wear". Half a rivet is about 1.5mm, which is
not at the replacement mark by some standards. I'd have no qualms
about leaving that one in service.

The FAQ recommends replacing a chain at 1/2% elongation. At 12", this is about
1/16", or about half a rivet diameter. I try to replace mine somewhere between
a half and a full rivet diameter. Supposedly wear accelerates after the 1/2%
point, so waiting longer isn't necessarily cost effective, since sprockets and
chain rings start wearing also.

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:51:33 GMT, Peter Cole
wrote:
The FAQ recommends replacing a chain at 1/2% elongation. At 12", this is
1/16", or about half a rivet diameter. I try to replace mine somewhere a
half and a full rivet diameter. Supposedly wear accelerates after the
1/2% point, so waiting longer isn't necessarily cost effective, since
sprockets and chain rings start wearing also.

That's the point of replacing the chain -- cassettes and cranksets
are much more expensive than chains, and once some wear shows up
on any of the above, it soon wears everything else -- if the chain
is worn, it will wear the gears; if a gear is worn, it'll wear the
chain, which will wear everything else.

Replacing stretched chains prolongs the rest of the chain drive
system's life.

--
Rick Onanian

Steve Shapiro wrote:
I do not believe in using volatile solvents unless it is absolutely
necessary. Detergents and citrus cleaners are inexpensive, work very
well for cleaning chains and are easier on you and the environment.

Hmmm, I hadn't considered the environmental aspect. I get the impression
that these commercial products are a bit overpriced. I haven't seen "Simple
Green" in any uk retail stores or online stores so I don't know how much it
costs.

I wanted to see if my chain cleaning ritual actually cleaned the chain
deep down around the pins, so here is what I did: I removed the dirty
chain then re-installed the quick link and held it in place with a
twisted piece of soft wire. This is to prevent the link from opening
with no tension on the chain. Then I did my usual cleansing ritual:
put chain in bottle, add hot water plus Simple Green, cap, shake, hold
for 15 minutes or longer, empty, repeat two or three times until the
liquid does not change color, rinse with hot water, and dry with a hot
air gun (a hair dryer works, but is slower.) Then I opened the quick
link to see if it was clean inside. It was. The pins were bright and
shiny as were the insides of the side plates. The exposed ends of the
inner links and the drawn bushings for the pins were also clean inside
and out.

Yeah, the SRAM PowerLink is cleverly designed not to come apart unless you
want it to so I just cleaned the chain as a complete loop then did much the
same as you and opened the PowerLink to inspect the squeaky clean inside of
the roller and "bushing". I was very impressed, but disappointed at how
quickly it has become grimy in there again.

[...]
For lube, I've been using 20W 50 motor oil. It works very well and
lasts for hundreds of miles (probably much longer although I clean the
chain every 200 to 500 hundred miles so I don't know.) The motor oil
is messy. No matter how many times I wipe the chain after applying
the oil, I see a fine mist of oil on my back rim, especially for the
first 50 miles or so. Also, the oil attracts dirt. I wipe the chain
frequently, but I do not add more lube between cleanings. Under this
method, the chain never, never squeaks and always shifts smoothly.
There is no measurable chain wear after slightly less then 2K miles on
the chain.

!!! Now this is why I am so shocked to see my chain wearing so rapidly, when
someone tells me that they have no measurable wear with 2000 miles on, when
using heavy oil for lubrication!

I noticed that the lube that comes on new SRAM chains feels thick and
sticky. I also notice that it lasts forever and it attracts less dirt
then the motor oil. I found this in a head to head comparison as my
wife has the new SRAM chain and we ride together. Although it seems
counterintuitive, it has led me to try a thicker, sticker lube; chain
saw bar oil. I have not used it enough to form an opinion yet.

Hmmm, well I'm afraid to say that any polluted traces of the original
lubricant are now nowhere to be seen on my chain. If you like it so much why
don't you find out what it is and buy yourself an industrial size vat of it
from SRAM or their supplier?

Sheldon Brown suggested the chain-in-the-bottle cleaning method I use.
Jobst Brandt suggested the lubing method.

The bottle method works well indeed. I'll look into more environmentally
friendly alternatives to White Spirit. By the way, why is WS bad for the
environment? Sorry to be ignorant...

Dani
Steve Shapiro

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:35:24 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
may have said:

Is this level of clenliness acceptable?

It's probably as good as most chains get.

Am I just getting pedantic now? I
must say, seeing the amount of wear on the chain has certainly made me even
more paranoid.

There's also the potential that the existing chain may not be as good
as the ones you can buy as replacements.

Is it possible that being so clean and free of heavy oil/gunk inside
has made it seem longer?

No.

Damn. I knew it was a long shot hoping for "yes, you now have to make it
dirty so that it functions correctly"

If my short bit of experience with waxing a chain is any indication,
perhaps your speculation elsewhere that it's time to try that route
might be applicable. My one and only waxed chain seems to be
accumulating crud less swiftly than its oiled cousins. Perhaps,
though, trying the wax with a new chain, to see if the chain then
lasts longer, would be more illuminating.

I will also note that in rechecking the recommendations that are
around, "half a rivet" is considered the wear limit by some standards.
(Others go a bit farther, and that's what I'd based my observation on
previously.)

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:04:56 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
may have said:

The bottle method works well indeed. I'll look into more environmentally
friendly alternatives to White Spirit. By the way, why is WS bad for the
environment? Sorry to be ignorant...

All volatile organic compounds contribute to air pollution in one
manner or another, although at least WS does not contribute to
photochemical smog. Refining the spirit is also an environmentally
dirty process at the *typical* facility, although it need not be as
much as it is; profit rules over responsible behavior there. On the
other hand, many non-citrus cleaners are also produced as end products
from a petrochemical feed stock. (And I am sorry to say that as of
the last time I tried Simple Green, it was *not* citrus based; if it
has since changed, this can only be for the better, since it was
decidedly less than satisfactory for me by compasison to what I
usually use.)

You may have to seach around to discover sources for the kinds of
cleaning agents that North American users commonly have available.
Automotive supply houses may be your best bet; if not, then check with
a janitorial supply concern. Kitchen degreasers are not always good
at removing petrochemical lubricants, though.

--
My email address is antispammed;
pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.

Werehatrack wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:35:24 +0000 (UTC), "asqui"
may have said:

Am I just getting pedantic now? I
must say, seeing the amount of wear on the chain has certainly made
me even more paranoid.

There's also the potential that the existing chain may not be as good
as the ones you can buy as replacements.

Hm? It's a brand new (/was/ a brand new) SRAM 9-Speed chain.I assume this is
as good a chain as I'm going to get (for a reasonable price).

Damn. I knew it was a long shot hoping for "yes, you now have to
make it dirty so that it functions correctly"

If my short bit of experience with waxing a chain is any indication,
perhaps your speculation elsewhere that it's time to try that route
might be applicable. My one and only waxed chain seems to be
accumulating crud less swiftly than its oiled cousins. Perhaps,
though, trying the wax with a new chain, to see if the chain then
lasts longer, would be more illuminating.
[...]

If the trial on the next cleaning cycle of this chain goes well I might just
do that with the next chain.

Dani