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#21
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:58:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/23/2019 8:36 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:16:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 10/23/2019 6:38 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:48:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/ -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc. Errr. TOM! The Jensen Interceptor FF used the Dunlop's Maxaret the first anti-lock braking system (ABS) to be widely used. Introduced in the early 1950s, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_FF "The Jensen FF is a four-wheel drive grand tourer produced by British car manufacturer Jensen Motors between 1966 and 1971. It was the first non all-terrain production car equipped with four-wheel drive and an anti-lock braking system. The use of four-wheel drive in a passenger car preceded the successful AMC Eagle by thirteen years and the Audi Quattro by fourteen years, and the Subaru Leone by five years. The Dunlop Maxaret mechanical anti-lock braking system had previously been used only on aircraft, lorries, and racing cars. As a comment, it might have been a "crude version" but the earliest versions of the Maxaret system reduced stopping distances by a third. Tom, do try to get it right next time. Get what right? "crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF" Which is what you rephrased. O.K. I'll I say that I doubt very much that the Jensen utilized a crude ABS system taken off a Boeing passenger jet as it seems unlikely that it would fit, if for no other reason. In addition Boeing had been installing anti-skid systems, or ABS in modern termonology, in their military aircraft since 1947 and their first commercial jet, the 707, since 1958. The Jensen FF was built from 1966 til 1971. Given that anti-skid brakes are far more critical to modern high speed jet aircraft than to automobiles do you really believe that after nearly 20 years of use on some of the most advanced large aircraft in the world that the anti-skid system would be describbed as "crude"? But of course, it sounds very colorful and excieting if you don't know a bit of history about the systems (or what you are talking about :-) -- cheers, John B. Some might say 'innovative' being the first of its kind: http://www.jensenmuseum.org/dunlop-maxaret/ Well, in the sense of being used on a car. The same basic concept was used on aircraft in the 1920's :-) And as I previously wrote Boeing was using an anti-skid system on the B-47 in the late 1940's. Others might say 'crude' as compared to modern systems. That I can't comment on that as I am only familiar with those used on some aircraft which consisted of a sensor to detect wheel rotation, or maybe speed of rotation, an electric or electronic control system and a power system control. I would comment that the systems worked satisfactorily, or at least satisfactorily enough that wheel locking or skidding didn't seem to be a factor in high performance aircraft landings. The F-4, the hottest thing I was around, was limited by the brakes themselves. On a heavy landing they got red hot and the discs warped. I believe that some aircraft also incorporate a compressed air emergency braking system but I have no idea of whether that is tied into the anti-skid system. -- cheers, John B. |
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#22
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:36:24 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/ "What problem are they trying to solve"? That's the question I ask myself every time I see something inexplicable. Nobody does anything without a reason. What is Shimano's reason? Here's a better view of the patent application: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190233049A1/en Looks like they applied for a patent that includes every known method of determining a difference in vehicle and ground speeds and equalizing the speeds using brake modulation. Too bad there are plenty of similar bicycle ABS braking patents: https://patents.google.com/?q=bicycle&q=abs&q=anti-lock&q=brakes Shimano's problem is "Now that we have an eBike, what else can we do with the electrical system"? The eBike already has electrical head and tail lights. Electrically actuated brakes and shifters are already patented and can probably be integrated in an eBike electrical system. There's probably something patented to electrically power accessories (cell phone, GPS, performance monitoring, night vision, cable lock, horn, bell, etc). Not much left that could be patented. Might as well patent something that nobody really needs of wants, but might prove useful should someone else try to make and sell it. That's the logic of a patent troll and has been used to justify an amazing collection of useless devices in anticipation of the associated science fiction becoming reality. No clue if Shimano will actually produce an ABS product. My guess(tm) is they will, just to test the market and determine how much people are willing to pay. I would expect to read reviews claiming that bicycle ABS is either the greatest or the worst idea of the season. Of course, the "safety first" flag will be waved for the occasion. Next step... electrically heated bicycle saddle. We already have heated handlebar grips: https://gearjunkie.com/heated-bike-grips Coming soon to the LBS in your neighborhood, the all electric bicycle. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#23
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 2:36:28 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:16:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 10/23/2019 6:38 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:48:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/ -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc. Errr. TOM! The Jensen Interceptor FF used the Dunlop's Maxaret the first anti-lock braking system (ABS) to be widely used. Introduced in the early 1950s, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_FF "The Jensen FF is a four-wheel drive grand tourer produced by British car manufacturer Jensen Motors between 1966 and 1971. It was the first non all-terrain production car equipped with four-wheel drive and an anti-lock braking system. The use of four-wheel drive in a passenger car preceded the successful AMC Eagle by thirteen years and the Audi Quattro by fourteen years, and the Subaru Leone by five years. The Dunlop Maxaret mechanical anti-lock braking system had previously been used only on aircraft, lorries, and racing cars. As a comment, it might have been a "crude version" but the earliest versions of the Maxaret system reduced stopping distances by a third. Tom, do try to get it right next time. Get what right? "crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF" Which is what you rephrased. O.K. I'll I say that I doubt very much that the Jensen utilized a crude ABS system taken off a Boeing passenger jet as it seems unlikely that it would fit, if for no other reason. In addition Boeing had been installing anti-skid systems, or ABS in modern termonology, in their military aircraft since 1947 and their first commercial jet, the 707, since 1958. The Jensen FF was built from 1966 til 1971. Given that anti-skid brakes are far more critical to modern high speed jet aircraft than to automobiles do you really believe that after nearly 20 years of use on some of the most advanced large aircraft in the world that the anti-skid system would be describbed as "crude"? But of course, it sounds very colorful and excieting if you don't know a bit of history about the systems (or what you are talking about :-) -- cheers, John B. Pay attention now, Slow Johnny. I'm the one who described the ABS when first fitted to a car as "crude". But then I have experience of those cars, while it is very likely that in your entire life you never even saw one. You should stick to what you know. Slow Johnny, which from your posts here is pitifully little, and most often either wrong or irrelevant. Andre Jute Fed up with this cocky little man. His pretensions would be amusing, if he weren't so bog-ignorant. |
#24
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 2:58:47 AM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/23/2019 8:36 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:16:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 10/23/2019 6:38 PM, John B. wrote: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:48:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/ -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc. Errr. TOM! The Jensen Interceptor FF used the Dunlop's Maxaret the first anti-lock braking system (ABS) to be widely used. Introduced in the early 1950s, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_FF "The Jensen FF is a four-wheel drive grand tourer produced by British car manufacturer Jensen Motors between 1966 and 1971. It was the first non all-terrain production car equipped with four-wheel drive and an anti-lock braking system. The use of four-wheel drive in a passenger car preceded the successful AMC Eagle by thirteen years and the Audi Quattro by fourteen years, and the Subaru Leone by five years. The Dunlop Maxaret mechanical anti-lock braking system had previously been used only on aircraft, lorries, and racing cars. As a comment, it might have been a "crude version" but the earliest versions of the Maxaret system reduced stopping distances by a third. Tom, do try to get it right next time. Get what right? "crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF" Which is what you rephrased. O.K. I'll I say that I doubt very much that the Jensen utilized a crude ABS system taken off a Boeing passenger jet as it seems unlikely that it would fit, if for no other reason. In addition Boeing had been installing anti-skid systems, or ABS in modern termonology, in their military aircraft since 1947 and their first commercial jet, the 707, since 1958. The Jensen FF was built from 1966 til 1971. Given that anti-skid brakes are far more critical to modern high speed jet aircraft than to automobiles do you really believe that after nearly 20 years of use on some of the most advanced large aircraft in the world that the anti-skid system would be describbed as "crude"? But of course, it sounds very colorful and excieting if you don't know a bit of history about the systems (or what you are talking about :-) -- cheers, John B. Some might say 'innovative' being the first of its kind: http://www.jensenmuseum.org/dunlop-maxaret/ Others might say 'crude' as compared to modern systems. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 "Innovative" is good. Most new engineering systems are refined over a period, and while that Maxaret system was proven reliable on planes, on the scale of a motorcar it was a long way from smooth, compared to say an ABS system a generation later, when it was finally ready for prime-time in shopping trolleys. Ande Jute I shiver when I think of the reckless things I did in my carefree yoof |
#25
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 2:29:36 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 5:07:14 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote: On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 12:04:01 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/ -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 snip Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment. What does that even mean? It means people who cycle carelessly and slam on the brakes because they notice potential hazards late. I have two bikes, disc and roller front brakes, that will throw you over the handlebars onto your face every time you apply the brakes carelessly. Not so the bike on which I have specified the lowest calliper force and most progressive rim hydraulics then available (no longer available, presumably because "real cyclists" only want the strong medicine). I expect devices I own to be my servants, not to demand more attention than I wish to give them. I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all. Lucky you. Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds? What do you think "talking speeds" are? On the Utopia, I'm imagining 10-12mph on the dead flats. http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute%27sUtopiaKranich.pdf Not really the type of riding the requires a sophisticated braking system. At the 10-12mph you "imagine" on dead flats, you won't be able to keep up even on the hills. The roads are uneven, and often wet, with loose gravel. On the downhills, on tracks that you wouldn't trust your bike to, I tough 50kph or so. So would you mind awfully not telling me what I need on my bike. You're starting to sound like Franki-boy. I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial. This whole post from you, Jay, demonstrates an infection of Krygowski Dementia, the belief that you know more about my circumstances, and the people I cycle with, than I do. In fact, the only person I've even heard of who rides on a coaster brake is the dumpster-diver Frank Krygowski. I don't know your circumstances, but low-speed cyclists have managed with even the crudest of brakes -- like coaster brakes (and drums, or both). https://www.gazellebikes.com/en-gb/granny-bikes I have Gazelle bikes and they all have good brakes, same as most mass-market bikes. I have a front disc that shudders -- in fact, I need to go work on it tonight -- it is de facto ABS, and it drives me crazy. An ABS front would probably freak-out a lot of cyclists. If the ABS is well made, you'd notice it as little as in a car. I don't know if a cheap car like your Subaru has ABS, but the point of my postscript about the early airplane-type ABS on the Jensen FF was that it was slow enough to feel the pulses individually, and that we've come a very long way since then. Tom has some numbers in a nearby post, which appear to assume a 1G stop, which happens only under test circumstances -- meaning that real-life stops require more time and space. And at that, the half-second Tom reckons the software requires is already faster than the three-quarters second which is *fast for a human*. Don't dis my Subaru. Well, I suppose it would be okay for a student or some other poor person who can't afford a Range Rover. It has ABS, but it doesn't make much difference where its needed the most.. http://www.snow-forecast.com/system/...jpg?1353263041 That's right on the way to ski resort, and its oddly empty road. It's a conga line on weekends. Anyway, ABS on snow and ice doesn't work in a four wheel skid. Imagine all the processing power in modern ABS systems and then transfer that to a bike. More electronic stuff to add to the Garmin, Di2, rear radar, etc., etc. I know. But far from being a Luddite, I'm a technofreak toolfondler. I don't cycle for the simplicity, I cycle for my health, so technical gear is welcome on my bikes. And if a cyclist wants ABS, just get a disc brake and contaminate the pads with a little oil or warp the rotor a bit. Instant ABS. That's a version of the "Serendipity Anti-Blockers" I described in the post above about the disc/limp-roller duo. I'm going to patent my mistakes and market them. You and everyone else. Engineering research is much accelerated by the ability to fail fast, so that all possibilities may be examined in the least time and eliminated at the least cost until only the most effective remains. Now watch Franki-boy go into orbit because he hasn't the faintest idea of research-for-profit but won't be able to keep his trap shut. Do you have some odd Frank fetish? No, but I promised Krygowski that for trying to run me out when I came here, I would kick him in the goolies every so often until he runs or dies. I keep my word, and assaults on free speech by people who should know better are anyway unforgivable. And speaking of fetishes, you should drop the third-grade naming conventions like Franki-boy and Slow Johnny. I wonder if you grasp how intensely irritating it is to a clown like Krygowski, who has nothing except his dignity, to have his dignity undermined in that simple, repetitive manner? If you think I care **** that you too find it intensely irritating, you should think again. More precisely, you should have thought to say something about Franki-boy's assault on free speech back then, which would be a reason for me to consider what you say now. And naming conventions are efficient in that they don't waste any of my time. The effect of "Franki-boy" can be seen in cold print, where a journalist at some local giveaway sheet, who stood in awe of Krygowski until he looked him up on the net and discovered him consistently contemptuously treated, gained the courage to call him a "scold" in permanent print. Ask Franki-boy what happened to his dream of being "a spokesman for bicycles". The irony is that, had Franki-boy instead of trying to assault me sucked up to me, I would probably have given him his dream, out of boredom or to thumb my nose at the Establishment; after all, he wouldn't be the first uptight dumbo I put in a governor's mansion or a prime minister's office, and so on, people who didn't have a single useful idea of their own but had the foresight to marry heiresses and so were able to afford the best. As for Slow Johnny, he's a bully (and the ugliest of the Ugly Americans) and should be put down. Often, if we can't get away with doing it permanently.. We're all adults (?). You first, and then persuade Slow Johnny, Franki-boy, Peter Howard in all his sock puppets, and Rideablot to behave like human beings, and then I'll think about it. -- Jay Beattie. Andre Jute Smile, until it is time to stop smiling. -- paraphrased from the screenplay of "Road House" by R. Lance Hill and Hilary Henkin |
#26
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On 24/10/2019 01:03, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote: snip Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment. What does that even mean? I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all. Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds? I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing. Deuteronomy 7:26. |
#27
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 5:12:13 AM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Next step... electrically heated bicycle saddle. Don't sneer. Earlier this year a chum turned up on his new Honda Gold Wing. I took a spin on it and didn't want to get off again. The heated seat ($999 option in the States) was fabulous on a chill spring day. But I'd pay for heated handlebar grips (probably standard equipment on the Gold Wing) before I pay for a heated seat on my bike. Andre Jute Don't encourage the saddle-sniffers -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#28
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 6:25:59 AM UTC+1, Tosspot wrote:
On 24/10/2019 01:03, jbeattie wrote: On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote: snip Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment. What does that even mean? I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all. Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds? I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing. Deuteronomy 7:26. Damn right, Tosspot! And I hope you took up a big collection for your wisdom. -- AJ |
#29
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 21:12:07 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:36:24 -0500, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/ "What problem are they trying to solve"? That's the question I ask myself every time I see something inexplicable. Nobody does anything without a reason. What is Shimano's reason? Here's a better view of the patent application: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190233049A1/en Looks like they applied for a patent that includes every known method of determining a difference in vehicle and ground speeds and equalizing the speeds using brake modulation. Too bad there are plenty of similar bicycle ABS braking patents: https://patents.google.com/?q=bicycle&q=abs&q=anti-lock&q=brakes Shimano's problem is "Now that we have an eBike, what else can we do with the electrical system"? The eBike already has electrical head and tail lights. Electrically actuated brakes and shifters are already patented and can probably be integrated in an eBike electrical system. There's probably something patented to electrically power accessories (cell phone, GPS, performance monitoring, night vision, cable lock, horn, bell, etc). Not much left that could be patented. Might as well patent something that nobody really needs of wants, but might prove useful should someone else try to make and sell it. That's the logic of a patent troll and has been used to justify an amazing collection of useless devices in anticipation of the associated science fiction becoming reality. No clue if Shimano will actually produce an ABS product. My guess(tm) is they will, just to test the market and determine how much people are willing to pay. I would expect to read reviews claiming that bicycle ABS is either the greatest or the worst idea of the season. Of course, the "safety first" flag will be waved for the occasion. Next step... electrically heated bicycle saddle. We already have heated handlebar grips: https://gearjunkie.com/heated-bike-grips Coming soon to the LBS in your neighborhood, the all electric bicycle. I wonder whether there isn't some corporate emphasis on patenting any and all things associated with whatever you may be making at the time. Just to have it in the files. I read somewhere that a significant cost factor in the manufacture of hand phones is the royalty payments for all the patented thingies that are incorporated into the phone. -- cheers, John B. |
#30
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Here's a solution. What was the problem?
Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 1:08:30 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 08:36:22 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/ -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Gotta get consumers to spend money somehow. If manufacturers tell them that what they have is fine manufacturers will go out of business. Manufacturers need to market stuff that's new and better even if it isn't. Cheers Come on, Ridealot, you bought the cut-down Di2 system (whatever it is called on road bikes) of electronic shifting, didn't you? (I have the full auto gear change system, which also controls the adaptive suspension. See http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html I don't feel ripped, but I think road bikers should.) Seems to me ABS would be a lot more useful, especially where you and Duane and I live, than mere electronic gear switching for a grand. Andre Jute Manufacturers make their gravy from options list I’m not sure I would pay extra for ABS any more than I would have for Di2. But I expect ABS to become standard just as disc brakes and Di2 seem to be now. A friend just bought a Specialized Ruby (ladies version of the Roubaix) with 11 speed 105 for $1800 CA and it came with Di2. Not a bad price for a full carbon road bike. |
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