#11
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Gresham's Law
On 11/14/2019 4:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 1:18:39 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/contine...arket-product/ From the link: "Dandelion root extract makes up part of the formula, which it is hoped will revolutionise the tyre compound and lessen the reliance on polluting rubber." Ladies and gentlmen, if you'll look out of the window, you'll notice we're now entering leprechaun land. Andre Jute Special Witch Doctor Kit with Optional Dandelion Root Extract now only $29.95 plus six offbrand cola tops The National Socialist Germans worked with dandelion for a rubber substitute/extender during the war. It's not ridiculous although maybe not so cost effective. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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#12
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Gresham's Law
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote: On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting forest fires. The necessity and demand for generators immediately rose. Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one could find, usually at artificially high prices. Fortunately, it only lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their generators, at high prices, of course. Did they restock with high quality generators? Nope. Most of what I saw for sale at the local big box stores was bottom of the line models. It also produced a supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been considering buying and reselling. Most of them were trashed by E10 ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix. Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial generator to run on NG. Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby buildings. If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would have much less impact. -- - Frank Krygowski Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running? Ah yes. Oslo, Norway. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html Cheers That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some other fuel is needed to burn the garbage. But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper. Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar. -- cheers, John B. |
#13
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Gresham's Law
On 11/14/2019 5:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting forest fires. The necessity and demand for generators immediately rose. Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one could find, usually at artificially high prices. Fortunately, it only lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their generators, at high prices, of course. Did they restock with high quality generators? Nope. Most of what I saw for sale at the local big box stores was bottom of the line models. It also produced a supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been considering buying and reselling. Most of them were trashed by E10 ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix. Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial generator to run on NG. Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby buildings. If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would have much less impact. -- - Frank Krygowski Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running? Ah yes. Oslo, Norway. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html Cheers That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some other fuel is needed to burn the garbage. But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper. Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar. -- cheers, John B. I don't know from Thailand or Singapore but the Japanese are the absolute experts on municipal refuse incineration. https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/yo...rning-in-Tokyo http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph240/park-h2/ https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/20...echnology.html I saw impressive municipal incinerator operations in suburban Tokyo almost 40 years ago and if anything they're even better at it now. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#14
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Gresham's Law
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:52:53 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2019 4:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote: On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 1:18:39 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/contine...arket-product/ From the link: "Dandelion root extract makes up part of the formula, which it is hoped will revolutionise the tyre compound and lessen the reliance on polluting rubber." Ladies and gentlmen, if you'll look out of the window, you'll notice we're now entering leprechaun land. Andre Jute Special Witch Doctor Kit with Optional Dandelion Root Extract now only $29.95 plus six offbrand cola tops The National Socialist Germans worked with dandelion for a rubber substitute/extender during the war. It's not ridiculous although maybe not so cost effective. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Official on-topic news: HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU AREN'T WEARING DANDELION MILK? Dandelion milk contains latex, as does bicycle clothing. Andre Jute Buna |
#15
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Gresham's Law
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:33:39 +0700, John B. wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...lo-copes-with- shortage-of-garbage-it-turns-into-energy.html Cheers That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a electrical generation, You have to be selective in the fuel that you pile into any burner idf you want the fuel to output heat for other processes. Singapore comes to mind here, and the net results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some other fuel is needed to burn the garbage. Burning of garbage is an old method, but it doesn't mean that all garbage can be used as fuel. But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different from garbage in Europe. Yes. different cultures produce different garbage. and I suspect that China and Japan are similar. Err, Japan has a culture of paper packaging. Australia has been selling its forest to make such for many decades. |
#16
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Gresham's Law
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:08:19 -0800, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 10:52:53 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote: On 11/14/2019 4:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote: On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 1:18:39 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/contine...c-bike-market- product/ From the link: "Dandelion root extract makes up part of the formula, which it is hoped will revolutionise the tyre compound and lessen the reliance on polluting rubber." Ladies and gentlmen, if you'll look out of the window, you'll notice we're now entering leprechaun land. Andre Jute Special Witch Doctor Kit with Optional Dandelion Root Extract now only $29.95 plus six offbrand cola tops The National Socialist Germans worked with dandelion for a rubber substitute/extender during the war. It's not ridiculous although maybe not so cost effective. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 Official on-topic news: HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU AREN'T WEARING DANDELION MILK? Dandelion milk contains latex, as does bicycle clothing. Andre Jute Buna Well, I do not wear latex, never have. But I do drink a product from the root of the dandeloin plant. Bicycle tyres made from dandeloin root will provide a great marketing point for extreme bicyclist; they can eat their tyre to survive. |
#17
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Gresham's Law
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:52:49 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2019 4:32 PM, Andre Jute wrote: On Thursday, November 14, 2019 at 1:18:39 PM UTC, AMuzi wrote: https://cyclingindustry.news/contine...arket-product/ From the link: "Dandelion root extract makes up part of the formula, which it is hoped will revolutionise the tyre compound and lessen the reliance on polluting rubber." Ladies and gentlmen, if you'll look out of the window, you'll notice we're now entering leprechaun land. Andre Jute Special Witch Doctor Kit with Optional Dandelion Root Extract now only $29.95 plus six offbrand cola tops The National Socialist Germans worked with dandelion for a rubber substitute/extender during the war. It's not ridiculous although maybe not so cost effective. Continental actually has/does make tires out of the stuff. see https://tinyurl.com/yemacsq5 One site I read seemed to imply that rubber made from dandelions was lighter in weight than those made from tree sap. -- cheers, John B. |
#18
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Gresham's Law
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 17:52:47 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2019 5:33 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting forest fires. The necessity and demand for generators immediately rose. Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one could find, usually at artificially high prices. Fortunately, it only lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their generators, at high prices, of course. Did they restock with high quality generators? Nope. Most of what I saw for sale at the local big box stores was bottom of the line models. It also produced a supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been considering buying and reselling. Most of them were trashed by E10 ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix. Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial generator to run on NG. Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby buildings. If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would have much less impact. -- - Frank Krygowski Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running? Ah yes. Oslo, Norway. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html Cheers That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some other fuel is needed to burn the garbage. But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper. Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar. -- cheers, John B. I don't know from Thailand or Singapore but the Japanese are the absolute experts on municipal refuse incineration. https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/yo...rning-in-Tokyo http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph240/park-h2/ https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/20...echnology.html I saw impressive municipal incinerator operations in suburban Tokyo almost 40 years ago and if anything they're even better at it now. But no mention of generating electricity from the incinerators. Singapore, a small island, built an incinerator attached to their electrical generating plant and found it necessary to add gas fuel - I don't know LPG, LNG, whatever - to get the stuff to burn. As I mentioned, Asian garbage is different. Nearly all "wet" garbage, i.e., table and cooking scraps, and very little else. Another point, in most of the poorer Asian nations the garbage is gleaned. People actually pick over the garbage and sort out everything that can be sold - scrap paper, plastic bottles, tin cans, etc. so the "garbage" contains very little that will burn well. -- cheers, John B. |
#19
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Gresham's Law
On 11/14/2019 6:52 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/14/2019 5:33 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank KrygowskiÂ* wrote: On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting forest fires.Â* The necessity and demand for generators immediately rose.Â* Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one could find, usually at artificially high prices.Â* Fortunately, it only lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their generators, at high prices, of course.Â* Did they restock with high quality generators?Â* Nope.Â* Most of what I saw for sale at the local big box stores was bottom of the line models.Â* It also produced a supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been considering buying and reselling.Â* Most of them were trashed by E10 ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix. Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial generator to run on NG. Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby buildings. If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would have much less impact. -- - Frank Krygowski Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running? Ah yes. Oslo, Norway. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html Cheers That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some other fuel is needed to burn the garbage. But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper. Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar. -- cheers, John B. I don't know from Thailand or Singapore but the Japanese are the absolute experts on municipal refuse incineration. https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/yo...rning-in-Tokyo http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph240/park-h2/ https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/20...echnology.html I saw impressive municipal incinerator operations in suburban Tokyo almost 40 years ago and if anything they're even better at it now. And regarding Joerg's worries (else-thread) about air pollution, the Japanese have close to the world's highest life expectancy. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#20
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Gresham's Law
On 11/14/2019 7:27 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 17:52:47 -0600, AMuzi wrote: On 11/14/2019 5:33 PM, John B. wrote: On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:38:49 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot wrote: On Thursday, 14 November 2019 12:53:56 UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/14/2019 11:43 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: We had a good non-currency example of this recently when PG&E turned off the electric power for a few days to allegedly prevent starting forest fires. The necessity and demand for generators immediately rose. Literally, the first day, the better quality generators were gone from the stores, while the low quality generators was all one could find, usually at artificially high prices. Fortunately, it only lasted about two weeks, as the stores were able to restock their generators, at high prices, of course. Did they restock with high quality generators? Nope. Most of what I saw for sale at the local big box stores was bottom of the line models. It also produced a supply of "broken" used generators for sale, some of which I've been considering buying and reselling. Most of them were trashed by E10 ethanol fuel left sitting in the carburetor and are an easy fix. Decades ago, I read of a proposal for home heating and home power generation by using home generators powered by natural gas. The big efficiency boost would come from utilization of waste heat from the generator, first to heat home water, then space heating. I suppose a dedicated hobbyist could give it a try by modifying a commercial generator to run on NG. Similarly, the idea of "co-generation" was floated, in which small local plants could burn a variety of fuels - perhaps including trash - to generate electricity for a community, and pipe waste heat into nearby buildings. If California had either of those systems running, PG&E problems would have much less impact. -- - Frank Krygowski Wasn't there a city in Norway that built a garbage burning generating station that was so successful along with recycling that they had to import garbage from other areas in order to keep the generating plant running? Ah yes. Oslo, Norway. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/30/w...to-energy.html Cheers That is interesting but I think it is likely that the Oslo plant must be highly selective in the garbage that they burn as a number of places in Asia have experimented in using garbage as fuel for a electrical generation, Singapore comes to mind here, and the net results is that it is not financially effective as natural gas or some other fuel is needed to burn the garbage. But it is possible that garbage in parts of Asia is actually different from garbage in Europe. For example, we, here in Thailand, buy no canned goods and almost no food stuffs packaged in plastic or paper. Indonesia was similar and very probably Singapore and Malaysia are also similar, and I suspect that China and Japan are similar. -- cheers, John B. I don't know from Thailand or Singapore but the Japanese are the absolute experts on municipal refuse incineration. https://www.japan-talk.com/jt/new/yo...rning-in-Tokyo http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2018/ph240/park-h2/ https://www.japan.go.jp/tomodachi/20...echnology.html I saw impressive municipal incinerator operations in suburban Tokyo almost 40 years ago and if anything they're even better at it now. But no mention of generating electricity from the incinerators. Singapore, a small island, built an incinerator attached to their electrical generating plant and found it necessary to add gas fuel - I don't know LPG, LNG, whatever - to get the stuff to burn. As I mentioned, Asian garbage is different. Nearly all "wet" garbage, i.e., table and cooking scraps, and very little else. Another point, in most of the poorer Asian nations the garbage is gleaned. People actually pick over the garbage and sort out everything that can be sold - scrap paper, plastic bottles, tin cans, etc. so the "garbage" contains very little that will burn well. -- cheers, John B. China distinguishes between 'wet' and 'burnable' refuse under the standard 'anything a pig can eat' and sorts accordingly with typical Chinese penalties for errors of taxonomy by consumers. Wet gets composted and spread on fields when not actually fed to pigs. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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