Heaven and Hell

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:40:01 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 22:18:46 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:18:07 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Reading your reference I had a look at the quoted study, which says in
part, "the physical properties of medical and non-medical facemasks
suggest that facemasks are ineffective to block viral particles due to
their difference in scales".

Now if you ask any competent medical authority he/she/it will agree
with that statement as the common "surgical mask" is/was never
intended to filter virus. It is intended to trap tiny droplets of
(basically) water that is expelled in the breath.

In fact I asked my cardiologist about masks and he stated that masks
are not designed, or intended, to protect you from disease but rather
as a help in you not spreading a disease. Note that "as a help".

Yep. No mask is going to stop a tiny virus particle. However, a mask
will block a virus particle riding on a water droplet or in an
aerosol. Instead of citing studies, try this experiment for yourself:

1. Breath on a hand mirror. Moisture will condense on the mirror.
2. Put on a face mask and again try to "fog" the mirror. Good luck
trying because unless you do something odd (such as cooling the mirror
in a refrigerator to help condense moisture from the air), there's not
going to be any visible fog on the mirror.
3. Try smelling something through a mask. Assuming the edges are
properly sealed, it's rather difficult to smell anything through the
mask.

What this demonstrates is that a mask will block moisture and
aerosols, which are the major forms of transport for Covid-19. It
also works in both directions. If you have two people talking to each
other, both wearing masks, the total moisture transport will be the
product of the filter efficiency of each mask. For example, if two
masks pass 10% of the moisture, then two masks will pass only:
0.1 * 0.1 = 0.01 = 1%
which is a rather dramatic reduction.

Which is essentially what I said. Isn't it :-?

Yep. I just added some detail and an easy method to proved that masks
can work.

I think that the point is that a mask may trap evil things in one's
breath so that one doesn't pass them on to others. As my doctor said,
it doesn't protect you it protects others from you.

Yep. The problem is that it works best when the mask is worn by
someone with Covid-19, but is asymptomatic. The mask will reduce
their ability to spread the bug. Having others wear masks helps
somewhat, but the big improvement is from preventing virus laden water
droplets from going very far from an infected person.

And while it is a personal observation I do believe that is one
chooses to lives in a society one owes something to that society and
doing something to restrict, or limit, the spread of a disease is
certainly well within the limits of what might should be acceptable to
most.

As I have said, I really don't understand the furor about wearing
masks. Here, of course, one is required by law to wear them in public
places - they won't allow you in a store, public building, etc.,
without one and so far I haven't heard anyone complain about them.
Again, as I wrote, we have been having some student protests about the
government and even the protesters are wearing masks :-)

I might add the better dressed ladies are often seen in color
coordinated masks :-)

I like the masks that have the wearers face printed on the mask. It's
sometime difficult to tell if they're wearing a mask. I've been
fooled a few times when I wasn't wearing my eyeglasses.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 23:31:18 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 22:49:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

Are you sure that is right? I sure thought military personnel were very limited in their rights and freedoms. I thought the military command issued orders and they were obeyed. Disobedience was met with instant imprisonment and or beatings. There is no objecting and arguing. Every soldier is vaccinated. That is it.

Lots of articles on the topic:
https://www.google.com/search?q=military+refusing+vaccination
Apparently, soldier can refuse to be vaccinated.

"DoD expects full force vaccination by summer, more than 30% of troops
refusing shot"
https://federalnewsnetwork.com/defense-main/2021/02/dod-expects-full-force-vaccination-by-summer-more-than-30-of-troops-refusing-shot/
Quote:

"It is a voluntary vaccine," Pentagon spokesman John Kirby said last
week. "There is no central tracking system to keep track of those who
are either refusing the vaccine or deferring their decision on the
vaccine. I don’t think we are going to be in a place where we can give
you an exact number of refusals."

The military can’t force service members to get the vaccine because it
was approved under emergency-use authorization.

End quote:

Not to dispute anything but when I was in the Service - 1952 - 1972
U.S. Air Force regulations stated that anything that a doctor stated
was necessary for the individuals health was lawful (if that is the
correct term). A kid that worked for me had all his teeth pulled out
and was given false teeth despite his loud objections. I gather that
this had come up in the past as he told me that when he refused he was
shown the regulation and told that continued refusal would result in
court marital.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 1:18:53 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:18:07 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Reading your reference I had a look at the quoted study, which says in
part, "the physical properties of medical and non-medical facemasks
suggest that facemasks are ineffective to block viral particles due to
their difference in scales".

Now if you ask any competent medical authority he/she/it will agree
with that statement as the common "surgical mask" is/was never
intended to filter virus. It is intended to trap tiny droplets of
(basically) water that is expelled in the breath.

In fact I asked my cardiologist about masks and he stated that masks
are not designed, or intended, to protect you from disease but rather
as a help in you not spreading a disease. Note that "as a help".

Yep. No mask is going to stop a tiny virus particle. However, a mask
will block a virus particle riding on a water droplet or in an
aerosol. Instead of citing studies, try this experiment for yourself:

1. Breath on a hand mirror. Moisture will condense on the mirror.
2. Put on a face mask and again try to "fog" the mirror. Good luck
trying because unless you do something odd (such as cooling the mirror
in a refrigerator to help condense moisture from the air), there's not
going to be any visible fog on the mirror.
3. Try smelling something through a mask. Assuming the edges are
properly sealed, it's rather difficult to smell anything through the
mask.

What this demonstrates is that a mask will block moisture and
aerosols, which are the major forms of transport for Covid-19. It
also works in both directions. If you have two people talking to each
other, both wearing masks, the total moisture transport will be the
product of the filter efficiency of each mask. For example, if two
masks pass 10% of the moisture, then two masks will pass only:
0.1 * 0.1 = 0.01 = 1%
which is a rather dramatic reduction.



I prefer the pants analogy

https://srhd.org/media/documents/PeeTest.pdf

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 2:40:09 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


I might add the better dressed ladies are often seen in color
coordinated masks :-)

It's interesting what one notices about people when you cant see the lower half of their face. In my front office there is a young woman with whom I don't have the need to interact very often. The first time I went down to see someone in her area after the mask order went into effect, she had just come in from the outside and was wearing a mask and winter hat. I had never noticed before but her eyes were absolutely gorgeous - the stuff you see in fashion magazines. Of course, in current office environments, you can't _Ever_ say anything about it.


--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 01:52:20 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 2:40:09 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


I might add the better dressed ladies are often seen in color
coordinated masks :-)

It's interesting what one notices about people when you cant see the lower half of their face. In my front office there is a young woman with whom I don't have the need to interact very often. The first time I went down to see someone in her area after the mask order went into effect, she had just come in from the outside and was wearing a mask and winter hat. I had never noticed before but her eyes were absolutely gorgeous - the stuff you see in fashion magazines. Of course, in current office environments, you can't _Ever_ say anything about it.

I can just hear it now. "Oh I fell in love... until she took off the
mask" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 4/21/2021 12:49 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 12:28:29 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)
Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.


Are you sure that is right? I sure thought military personnel were very limited in their rights and freedoms. I thought the military command issued orders and they were obeyed. Disobedience was met with instant imprisonment and or beatings. There is no objecting and arguing. Every soldier is vaccinated. That is it.






My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.

But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.


--
- Frank Krygowski

China virus vaccine is not mandatory for military personnel:

https://www.freep.com/story/news/pol...ne/7173918002/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 4/21/2021 1:40 AM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 22:18:46 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:18:07 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Reading your reference I had a look at the quoted study, which says in
part, "the physical properties of medical and non-medical facemasks
suggest that facemasks are ineffective to block viral particles due to
their difference in scales".

Now if you ask any competent medical authority he/she/it will agree
with that statement as the common "surgical mask" is/was never
intended to filter virus. It is intended to trap tiny droplets of
(basically) water that is expelled in the breath.

In fact I asked my cardiologist about masks and he stated that masks
are not designed, or intended, to protect you from disease but rather
as a help in you not spreading a disease. Note that "as a help".

Yep. No mask is going to stop a tiny virus particle. However, a mask
will block a virus particle riding on a water droplet or in an
aerosol. Instead of citing studies, try this experiment for yourself:

1. Breath on a hand mirror. Moisture will condense on the mirror.
2. Put on a face mask and again try to "fog" the mirror. Good luck
trying because unless you do something odd (such as cooling the mirror
in a refrigerator to help condense moisture from the air), there's not
going to be any visible fog on the mirror.
3. Try smelling something through a mask. Assuming the edges are
properly sealed, it's rather difficult to smell anything through the
mask.

What this demonstrates is that a mask will block moisture and
aerosols, which are the major forms of transport for Covid-19. It
also works in both directions. If you have two people talking to each
other, both wearing masks, the total moisture transport will be the
product of the filter efficiency of each mask. For example, if two
masks pass 10% of the moisture, then two masks will pass only:
0.1 * 0.1 = 0.01 = 1%
which is a rather dramatic reduction.

Which is essentially what I said. Isn't it :-?

I think that the point is that a mask may trap evil things in one's
breath so that one doesn't pass them on to others. As my doctor said,
it doesn't protect you it protects others from you.

And while it is a personal observation I do believe that is one
chooses to lives in a society one owes something to that society and
doing something to restrict, or limit, the spread of a disease is
certainly well within the limits of what might should be acceptable to
most.

As I have said, I really don't understand the furor about wearing
masks. Here, of course, one is required by law to wear them in public
places - they won't allow you in a store, public building, etc.,
without one and so far I haven't heard anyone complain about them.
Again, as I wrote, we have been having some student protests about the
government and even the protesters are wearing masks :-)

I might add the better dressed ladies are often seen in color
coordinated masks :-)


That's a fashion statement, one which Frank also endorses.
(other fashions not so much)

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

jbeattie writes:

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 2:14:44 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 1:28:54 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 12:58:28 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 8:00:25 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 7:12:26 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/19/2021 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 12:55:49 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
1979:
Q. What is the difference between Heaven and Hell?
A: In Heaven, the French are the chefs, the Italians are
the lovers, the swiss are the bankers, the Germans are
the engineers, and the British are the police.
In Hell, the Germans are the police, the British are the
cooks, the Italians are the engineers, the French are
the bankers, and the Swiss are the lovers.

2029:
Doordash are the police
Google are the engineers, the bankers, and the government
Safeway and McDonalds are the cooks
And there are no lovers, since we all live alone in 1
room apartments due to covid-26, and visiting hours were
suspended due to covid-28
This is not that far off. The latest study on masks from
Stanford University is that masks can cause pneumococcal
pneumonia. Fauci is literally murdering people to force
more and more people to use vaccines for which he has so
far earned over $9 million. Fauci actually thinks this is
funny and laughs about this in public!

Most of the posters here don't know what science is but
since they dislike my comments they will turn happily to
the dark side and kill themselves rather than take any
advice from me. Well, I can think of a few who won't be
missed in the least after they are gone.

Tommy, I believe that you are telling lies.... again. Please post a
reference to your remark that "The latest study on masks
from Stanford
University is that masks can cause pneumococcal pneumonia".

I believe that failure to do will be proof positive that you are a
liar.

The Stanford piece this week was yet another blow to the
mask religion:

https://noqreport.com/2021/04/17/sta...against-covid/

Not that anyone's religion will change from mere data.

The 'pneumonia' claim was in some other paper I did not read.
Really?
Gawd. https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...cks-evidence-/
Hmm. That article certainly sounds/reads like the kind of bunk
it purports to debunk. Putting aside the childlike style, the
first claim seems ridiculous to me - how could the mask NOT
result in less oxygen? And if it's not, why do I want to take it
off so I can breathe easier?
The Politfact article points out what is generally available on
the internet about the author and nature of the hypothesis stated
by the author -- who is not a representative of Stanford. It is
not in itself a scientific journal article.

A search of the Elsevier medical journal data base using the
search "effect! w/20 "face mask" or "surgical mask" or "personal
protective equipment"" turns up 2,538 articles. Skimming the hits,
the consensus seems to be that surgical masks help stop the spread
of droplets and aerosol from infected persons, and with social
distancing, reduce virus transmission. Poor fitting surgical masks
provide little protection to the wearer. There is evidence that
wearing a surgical mask may reduce blood oxygen levels in an
insignificant way during relatively static activities like
attending a college class. The effect is greater with higher
efforts, not surprisingly -- and with different masks.
Why are you pretending that the CDC themselves did not write an
article saying the same things? Why are you making any possible
attempt to hide the fact that masks do nothing and that there have
been studies for 40 years that all say the same thing?

This is what the CDC says about masks:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...sars-cov2.html
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-guidance.html
Here, print yourself a poster:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...hers-Final.pdf

This study does not say that masks do
nothing. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/...mm6936a5-H.pdf
Why would the CDC recommend mask wearing if a mask did nothing? What
is in it for the CDC? The last time I checked, they did not hold
stock in J&J, 3M or the legion of other mask producers. Is it all
about the subjugation of ubermensch Tom Kunich? Are they trying to
keep you down -- you and John Galt?

As I was saying, loose fitting surgical masks provide little
protection to the wearer. A mask prevents or limits spread from the
user -- and along with social distancing reduces exposure. It is a
better version of coughing into your sleeve. Why is that so hard to
understand? Go back and slowly re-read the CDC guidance on mask
wearing. Here, again:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-guidance.html

Read this, too: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2776536

For a round up of mask studies, see

https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence

My take on these, not having read them all, is that the evidence that
masks are helpful is weak. As for why the CDC would recommend mask
wearing, they're part of a government that has invested heavily in
claiming to be able to command the tide to go out. Masks are a part of
the pandemic theater.

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 4/20/2021 7:00 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/20/2021 5:12 PM, pH wrote:
On 2021-04-20, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/19/2021 8:35 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:49:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 12:55:49 AM UTC-7,
wrote:
1979:
Q. What is the difference between Heaven and Hell?
A: In Heaven, the French are the chefs, the Italians are the
lovers, the swiss are the bankers, the Germans are the
engineers, and the British are the police.
In Hell, the Germans are the police, the British are the cooks,
the Italians are the engineers, the French are the bankers, and
the Swiss are the lovers.

2029:
Doordash are the police
Google are the engineers, the bankers, and the government
Safeway and McDonalds are the cooks
And there are no lovers, since we all live alone in 1 room
apartments due to covid-26, and visiting hours were suspended
due to covid-28
This is not that far off. The latest study on masks from
Stanford University is that masks can cause pneumococcal
pneumonia. Fauci is literally murdering people to force more and
more people to use vaccines for which he has so far earned over
$9 million. Fauci actually thinks this is funny and laughs about
this in public!

Most of the posters here don't know what science is but since
they dislike my comments they will turn happily to the dark side
and kill themselves rather than take any advice from me. Well, I
can think of a few who won't be missed in the least after they
are gone.

Tommy, I believe that you are telling lies.... again. Please post a
reference to your remark that "The latest study on masks from Stanford
University is that masks can cause pneumococcal pneumonia".

I believe that failure to do will be proof positive that you are a
liar.


The Stanford piece this week was yet another blow to the
mask religion:

https://noqreport.com/2021/04/17/sta...against-covid/


Not that anyone's religion will change from mere data.

The 'pneumonia' claim was in some other paper I did not read.


Thanks for this link.Â* Once you get past the lead in and get down to the
report it does seem to agree with the Danish study that I think was
done in
November or December of last year....

https://fee.org/articles/new-danish-...vid-infection/


At this point, though, even if completely true peoples' ways are somewhat
set.
For example, what if it were found that cellphone emmissions were in fact
bad for you w/o a shadow of a doubt.Â* I don't think many would give
them up.

oh yes....bicycle

pH in Aptos


pH in Aptos


Bicycles are plenty dangerous but without them (mine, anyway) life
has no point.

Again, it's a benefit vs. detriment issue. The horror regarding mask
wearing is mostly political posturing.

As is the horror of those walking about bare-faced. Masks are above all
a public expression of obedience to authority.

John B. writes:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:28:23 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/19/2021 11:18 PM, John B. wrote:

On a personal basis I really can't see what the furor is about. Over
here you are required to wear a mask in a public place - store,
office, etc. and everybody just does it. No leaping up and down,
waving of arms and shouting, "I don't wanna do that". In fact we have
been having some Student protests about the government and even those
protesting are wear masks :-)

Well, I think many right wingers are timid and delicate. They fear that
wearing a mask may decrease their blood oxygen content by a percent, and
they quiver in fear.

More honestly, right wingers jump on even the least plausible
justification for their political posturing.

A very good friend of mine works as a civilian at a naval base.
Supposedly the commander said certain recreation facilities will not be
allowed to open until 80% of sailors are vaccinated. But many are still
refusing.

My guy said it's nuts. He says it's normal for them to be subjected to
mandatory vaccination for other maladies before shipping out, and
there's never any objection.

But like every other aspect of COVID, right wing politics trumps both
science and reasonable past practice.

I had been in the Service for more then ten years when I was sent to
Vietnam and had, of course, had shots every year for my whole time in
the service. But as preparation to my sojourn in South East Asia I got
shots on both arms and one "big one" in the butt. After I got my shirt
on and my pants pulled up the ,Medic says, "you aren't going anywhere
for the next few days are you?" And I say "Hows come?". And he says
well, after you get the plague shot (the big one in the arse) we like
you to stay around for a few days", and I say, "you mean some people
get the plague from the shot?", and he don't say nothing.

A little more seriously, I don't know about now but when I was in the
Air Force there was a regulation that you could not refuse any medical
or dental treatment that the doctor prescribed for your health.

Were you ever ordered to take any medical treatments that were not FDA
approved?