I am that out of date

On 4/20/2021 2:12 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 11:52:56 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/17/2021 11:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 17 Apr 2021 16:16:05 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Now I am aware of them new fangled high tech bamboo bikes, but other than that, I don't think bicycles will be too flammable. Metal doesn't burn too well. Although I think I have seen some YouTube videos of some metal that does catch fire and burn really hot. But I don't think bikes are made out of that special metal. I'm guessing that special metal might also cost a whole lot. And $100k bikes won't sell too well.

Sounds like a magnesium bicycle frame:
https://www.google.com/search?q=magnesium+bicycle+frame&tbm=isch
Magnesium burns VERY well.
Well, that depends. If you're talking about components of reasonable
thickness, some magnesium alloys can burn under certain circumstances,
while others are more resistant.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...b9EItpV4Srzeyj

Original Volkswagens had magnesium alloy crankcases, and nobody worries
excessively about them catching fire.

OTOH, a strip of pure magnesium foil is really easy to burn, and it
burns very brightly indeed. Same is true of chips, I've heard.

BTW, titanium chips can also burn and are very hard to extinguish. A
machinist I knew once had that experience. But it's not a huge hazard in
my limited experience. We had a student team who, for their first lathe
project, mistakenly grabbed a 2" bar of titanium instead of mild steel.

Seems to me the weight difference should have tipped him off that he had the wrong stuff

They were probably Electrical students. :-)

I'm actually serious. Students from several majors had to take this
machine shop lab. I'm sure it gave many of them their first experience
with even hacksaws and files, let alone lathes and milling machines.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 9:18:55 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/20/2021 2:12 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 11:52:56 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
We had a student team who, for their first lathe
project, mistakenly grabbed a 2" bar of titanium instead of mild steel.

Seems to me the weight difference should have tipped him off that he had the wrong stuff
They were probably Electrical students. :-)


lol...true, sort of like our recent experiences with software interns around a soldering iron

intern: Ow! that's hot!
me: ummm.....yeah.....

On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.




I just *know* someone here will have used an acetylene carbide light :-(

On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.
I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.


Forgot about inflatable tires. I'm not sure how long they have been around but I would guess they are before "modern" cycling. Ford Model T cars in 1908 had pneumatic tires. But if you are considering pneumatic tires as modern, then I guess you have to also consider chains as modern. Before chain driven bicycles, you had high wheel bikes where you directly powered the bike, no gearing reduction/amplification. And if you want to go back a bit further, then pedals are a big improvement. Before high wheelers, you had those bikes where you straddled the frame and propelled them by running with your feet and the bike was under your crotch. Go back a whole lot further and you get the round wheel as a big advancement.

I started the timeline for modern cycling at the 1920s. I have a poster of the Tour riders at the time riding pneumatic wheeled pedal bicycles with chains and cranks and a single rear cog. They had those butterfly wing nuts on both wheels as quick releases and the only gearing change was to stop and flip the rear wheel around to the cog on the other side. Pretty sure they were direct drive, no freewheel. So my derailleur gearing counts as modern if you start there.



The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"


I agree that new shifting mechanics such as STI, Ergo, electronic, Rohloff hub, etc. are nice but not necessary. Bikes with downtube, barend, and stem shifters all shifted bikes just fine. Even before index became standard. Friction worked.


--
- Frank Krygowski

Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

O RLY? From 1992 to 1995 I rode my Sparta Cornwall bike to work, every
single working day, around the year.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/bild12a.jpg
Indeed, these are chromed steel rims. Any idea why there wasn't any
problem with that, huh?

Sorry about the picture quality, that picture was taken using an Apple
QickTake camera, in 1995.




Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.

Sure. So do lead/acid batteries, for example that gray piece marked
"friwo" in the picture linked below.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/lichtc1.jpg/image_preview


Or bottle dynamos, like that one. It sucked.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/P1050501a.JPG/view.html

But somehow, most of this stuff worked good enough to server my well for
many years.
A few expensive parts did not. For example that one:
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/such/DSC04651.jpg. Do you know what it
is?





I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

People still do that nowadays. Bicycles got lighter with alloy
components, rims, frames, handlebar, this made it easier to push.

I cycled to school on a heavy Rabeneick bicycle, using a 3 speed hub
(Fichtel&Sachs Torpedo). Riding home (6%, about 120 m up) wasn't easy.
But pushing that bike would have been even more strenous.


Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement.

What about better brakes?


Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

Sure. But some of those marginal improvements are nice, nevertheless.


The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

My current custom made road bike, built in in 2010, has Shimano st-6703
Ultegra Dual Control Shifters. I like it. They aren't without fault,
the mechanics are somewhat fragile, changing gear wires is somewhat
difficult, but overall, these offer significant benefits compared to
downtube shifters. I still have my old read bike, a Panasonic PR3000
bought in 1995
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/pict2439.jpg/download and keep
it as a backup and for indoor training, but I prefer to ride the newer
bike. It wasn't that expensive, either, about EUR 1400 (~ $1700) in
2010. One of my sons bought a similar bike less than a year ago for even
less money.


If i was asked to list improvements, I'd name hub dynamos, led lights
with free-form reflectors, clipless pedals (esp. SPD), plus all those
tiny improvements which aren't really exiting and less observable -
better brake pads, better alloy, better tires, better handlebar tape,
....

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 1:05:38 p.m. UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.
I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

--
- Frank Krygowski

I think that for the average bicyclist, one of the biggest advances in bicycling components was reliable index shifting.Since then just about anyone could get on a well st up bike and make effortless and precise gear changes. Doesn't matter if those index shifters were on the downtube or handlebar, they were a blessing for many.

Cheers

On 4/21/2021 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 21, 2021 at 12:05:38 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.
I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.


Forgot about inflatable tires. I'm not sure how long they have been around but I would guess they are before "modern" cycling. Ford Model T cars in 1908 had pneumatic tires. But if you are considering pneumatic tires as modern, then I guess you have to also consider chains as modern. Before chain driven bicycles, you had high wheel bikes where you directly powered the bike, no gearing reduction/amplification. And if you want to go back a bit further, then pedals are a big improvement. Before high wheelers, you had those bikes where you straddled the frame and propelled them by running with your feet and the bike was under your crotch. Go back a whole lot further and you get the round wheel as a big advancement.

I started the timeline for modern cycling at the 1920s. I have a poster of the Tour riders at the time riding pneumatic wheeled pedal bicycles with chains and cranks and a single rear cog. They had those butterfly wing nuts on both wheels as quick releases and the only gearing change was to stop and flip the rear wheel around to the cog on the other side. Pretty sure they were direct drive, no freewheel. So my derailleur gearing counts as modern if you start there.



The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"


I agree that new shifting mechanics such as STI, Ergo, electronic, Rohloff hub, etc. are nice but not necessary. Bikes with downtube, barend, and stem shifters all shifted bikes just fine. Even before index became standard. Friction worked.


I didn't intend to portray pneumatic tires as a modern invention. I just
said pneumatics were the last big improvement before derailleur gears.

If we wanted a chronological list of the really big improvements from
the very beginning, what would they be? Maybe these?

Pedals (instead of scooting along)

Rolling element bearings (instead of plain bearings or bushings)

Tubular steel frames (instead of wood or cast iron)

Huge diameter wheels (instead of spinning 100 rpm to go 8 mph)

Chain drives (instead of huge diameter wheels)

Real brakes (instead of spoon brakes)

Changeable gears (instead of single speeds)

Dynamo lighting (I had to put that in!)

Derailleur gears with wide gear ranges (instead of hub gears, flipping
rear wheels, etc.)

Suspension for off-road riding (instead of rigid mountain bikes)

....

I think each one of those allowed riding significantly farther, faster,
more comfortably or safer compared to the technology it replaced.

And everything else I can think of caused much smaller and merely
incremental improvements.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 4/21/2021 4:10 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:05:34 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
:

On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

O RLY? From 1992 to 1995 I rode my Sparta Cornwall bike to work, every
single working day, around the year.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/bild12a.jpg
Indeed, these are chromed steel rims. Any idea why there wasn't any
problem with that, huh?

Sorry about the picture quality, that picture was taken using an Apple
QickTake camera, in 1995.




Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.

Sure. So do lead/acid batteries, for example that gray piece marked
"friwo" in the picture linked below.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/lichtc1.jpg/image_preview


Or bottle dynamos, like that one. It sucked.
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/licht/P1050501a.JPG/view.html

But somehow, most of this stuff worked good enough to server my well for
many years.
A few expensive parts did not. For example that one:
https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/such/DSC04651.jpg. Do you know what it
is?





I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

People still do that nowadays. Bicycles got lighter with alloy
components, rims, frames, handlebar, this made it easier to push.

I cycled to school on a heavy Rabeneick bicycle, using a 3 speed hub
(Fichtel&Sachs Torpedo). Riding home (6%, about 120 m up) wasn't easy.
But pushing that bike would have been even more strenous.


Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement.

What about better brakes?


Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

Sure. But some of those marginal improvements are nice, nevertheless.


The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down to
"Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change! And it
cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

My current custom made road bike, built in in 2010, has Shimano st-6703
Ultegra Dual Control Shifters. I like it. They aren't without fault,
the mechanics are somewhat fragile, changing gear wires is somewhat
difficult, but overall, these offer significant benefits compared to
downtube shifters. I still have my old read bike, a Panasonic PR3000
bought in 1995
https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/pict2439.jpg/download and keep
it as a backup and for indoor training, but I prefer to ride the newer
bike. It wasn't that expensive, either, about EUR 1400 (~ $1700) in
2010. One of my sons bought a similar bike less than a year ago for even
less money.


If i was asked to list improvements, I'd name hub dynamos, led lights
with free-form reflectors, clipless pedals (esp. SPD), plus all those
tiny improvements which aren't really exiting and less observable -
better brake pads, better alloy, better tires, better handlebar tape,
...

Are those drum brakes?


--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 4/21/2021 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, April 18, 2021 at 4:09:58 AM UTC-5, Tosspot wrote:
On 17/04/2021 17:53, Ralph Barone wrote:

Don’t forget the chromed steel rims. Nobody appears to be lamenting the
demise of chromed steel rims.
In the ****ed up world of retro bikes I have seen a few at work with
chromed steel rims. Now those don't get ridden in the rain or I
wouldn't be seeing them!

Imho, the two biggest advancements to modern cycling, the alloy rim and
bike lights. Hand up who remembers cycling home in the dark on a rainy
night? NiCads suck.


I'm not sure how far back "modern" cycling goes, but I would add
gearing to the biggest advancement category. Front and rear
derailleurs and a means to shift into the various rear cogs and/or
chainrings.

I agree. I've read old tales of touring with three or four speed hub
gears. Walking up any significant climb was standard procedure.

Before derailleur gearing, I think pneumatic tires were the biggest
advancement. Since derailleur gearing I think we've been chasing ever
tinier marginal improvements.

Pneumatic tires are great, but chain drive was pretty big too.

The most modern "improvements" are very underwhelming. We're now down
to "Ooh, I don't have to move my finger as far to get a gear change!
And it cost me only a couple thousand dollars extra!"

--