bathe components, and theory as to strange behavior after reassembly of rear hub

On 6/17/2015 4:29 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi writes:

If the hub is assembled correctly, those are
symptoms of a loose bearing adjustment. Set to just
a trace of play at the rim and lock all adjustments
well. Coaster hubs need a very small amount of
bearing play.

Yes, I'll try this! I didn't consider the "tightness"
(?) any further than not having the sideway wobble you
can feel with your hand on the wheel with the bike
upside down. Not having that, and at the same time the
cone nut and lock nut sealed, is tricky to begin with.
You say, that is not enough, it should be tighter
still? If it gets too tight, isn't that when the wheel
doesn't spin at all? It seems the margin isn't that
big. Anyway I'll try it and see what happens.

By the way, the bearing we speak of is the big one,
that is the most exterior but still in the hub, on the
chainwheel side, right?


Coaster hubs have three bearings, hence cannot be adjusted
to zero play (it would bind). Set up for the smallest
perceptible play at the rim.

If the bearing adjustment is too loose, the clutch has to
travel too far right to engage and the bendix also travels
too far left in braking. Symptom is slow to drive and slow
to brake, as you described:

"1) when I pedal, sometimes the crank and pedals
falls forward one quarter to half a lap until
power is as it should transferred to the rear
chainwheel; and

2) when I pedal, and then stop, the pedals and
crank continue to spin along with the
rear wheel. "

If it's extremely loose, the bendix runs right off the end
of the driver after braking, which locks like a fixie until
it the hubshell screws it back in place.

Depending on the hub model (is this a newish design hub?)
the clutch can be installed backwards which will not grip
the hub well and also give erratic braking. The clutch
tapers are different left to right. The(usually larger)
taper end faces out toward the sprocket. The end with ears
or a sleeve faces in toward the brake shoes.

Grease is not the problem. You can pump it full of grease
and it will work as well or as poorly as it did with minimal
lubricant.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

http://www.livestrong.com/article/18...ing-gas-fumes/

WIPE THE DIRT OFF WITH A MOISTEND RAG WEARING GLOVES

AMuzi writes:

Coaster hubs have three bearings, hence cannot be
adjusted to zero play (it would bind). Set up for
the smallest perceptible play at the rim.

I'll do the common Torpedo in a minute, right now
I did the Shimano B-type which is more complicated so
it may be more difficult isolating the error. But if
symptoms are the same probably it is the same error as
well. Here there is a spiral on the axle that will
push the pieces apart, which I think can lead to the
sideway "unfixedness" I described earlier, so this
time I put it tighter from the break side so it will
push a longer distance and loose some power.
Previously I though the position (on the axle) of the
spiral was important but because the hub seals the
everything on both sides well before the axle ends
I suppose an exact center position isn't an issue.
Apart from that, the only thing I can put tighter is
the cone nut on the other side which with one
dirt-protector piece in between holds the smallest
bearing, then comes the chainwheel and then
immediately the biggest bearing. This cone nut I can
put in so hard nothing will rotate. Now it is hard but
it rotates, the hub doesn't wobble, and I only locked
the cone nut symbolically toward the lock nut so not
to give the ballring any more space. The chainwheel
moves ~1.25 cm up and down without
rotating everything.

Here is how it looks:

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/bike/shimano-b.jpg
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/bike/shimano-b-dis.jpg

If the bearing adjustment is too loose, the clutch
has to travel too far right to engage and the bendix
also travels too far left in braking. Symptom is
slow to drive and slow to brake, as you described.

.... the hub is like a big screw you screw in and out
while pedaling and breaking?

Depending on the hub model (is this a newish design
hub?) the clutch can be installed backwards which
will not grip the hub well and also give erratic
braking. The clutch tapers are different left to
right. The(usually larger) taper end faces out
toward the sprocket. The end with ears or a sleeve
faces in toward the brake shoes.

It is a bunch of torpedoes apart from the above.
I don't think they are new. Here is how they look:

http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/bike/.../assembled.jpg

I have not experienced any problems with breaking.
If it works this well with a component backwards it is
some flexible technology indeed. I'll do the Torpedo
next and think twice about that. Talk to you
tomorrow perhaps.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

OK, now I did the Torpedo again. Nothing is backwards
because it cannot be (what I can see) - everything
fits together one and only one way. So remains the
bearing play issue. Now, the small and the medium
bearings are encapsulated in the extended sprocket
component. So I have not tampered with those, ever.
Even the big bearing on the break side, but belonging
to the outermost hub shell, is in some pocket or slot!
The only way I could think of decreasing the rim play
for any of the three was to make the whole thing
tighter, by holding the brake arm and putting in the
six-sided nut harder. I also put in the frame nuts
harder for good measure. I don't know if it helped as
I'll try the bike only going home tonight, but already
at this point I can say roll has been improved for
whatever reason with the wheel spinning effortless.
Hopefully that's a good sign as to the original
problem. The hub sounds good with some random "sands
sounds" (kic-kic-kric) that I don't know is an issue
or not. More to come.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Emanuel Berg writes:

OK, now I did the Torpedo again. Nothing is
backwards because it cannot be (what I can see) -
everything fits together one and only one way.
So remains the bearing play issue. Now, the small
and the medium bearings are encapsulated in the
extended sprocket component. So I have not tampered
with those, ever. Even the big bearing on the break
side, but belonging to the outermost hub shell, is
in some pocket or slot! The only way I could think
of decreasing the rim play for any of the three was
to make the whole thing tighter, by holding the
brake arm and putting in the six-sided nut harder.
I also put in the frame nuts harder for
good measure.

That was it. Problem solved. Tho actually I did remove
some greese so that might still have been it... Ha,
just kidding Tho I'm quoting myself AMuzi provided
the solution.

Anyway those bearings were certainly not "loose" and
because you don't interact directly with them this
connection would have taken me a long time to figure
out on my own.

About the bearings moving sideways, this means they
are propagating the movement which will always imply
a delay - perhaps unnoticeable if bearing play is
minimalized, but still. I wonder, is this by design or
is it a consequence of the bearing principle of
holding the wheel on the axle but not 100% shut, as
then the "bearing" becomes another static component
the wheel will rest on (or one that will rest on the
axle)?

I mean, it isn't possible to have it both ways - play
vertically to have the reduced wear, but none
horizontally, to have instant feedback?

Or is the delay somewhy desired?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Emanuel Berg wrote:
:Emanuel Berg writes:

: OK, now I did the Torpedo again. Nothing is
: backwards because it cannot be (what I can see) -
: everything fits together one and only one way.
: So remains the bearing play issue. Now, the small
: and the medium bearings are encapsulated in the
: extended sprocket component. So I have not tampered
: with those, ever. Even the big bearing on the break
: side, but belonging to the outermost hub shell, is
: in some pocket or slot! The only way I could think
: of decreasing the rim play for any of the three was
: to make the whole thing tighter, by holding the
: brake arm and putting in the six-sided nut harder.
: I also put in the frame nuts harder for
: good measure.

:That was it. Problem solved. Tho actually I did remove
:some greese so that might still have been it... Ha,
:just kidding Tho I'm quoting myself AMuzi provided
:the solution.

:Anyway those bearings were certainly not "loose" and
:because you don't interact directly with them this
:connection would have taken me a long time to figure
ut on my own.

:About the bearings moving sideways, this means they
:are propagating the movement which will always imply
:a delay - perhaps unnoticeable if bearing play is
:minimalized, but still. I wonder, is this by design or
:is it a consequence of the bearing principle of
:holding the wheel on the axle but not 100% shut, as
:then the "bearing" becomes another static component
:the wheel will rest on (or one that will rest on the
:axle)?

:I mean, it isn't possible to have it both ways - play
:vertically to have the reduced wear, but none
:horizontally, to have instant feedback?

:Or is the delay somewhy desired?

A little play is desirable, to prevent inadvertant application of the
brake. But it's not the best possible solution; it is simple and
cheap, which might make it the best implementation.

--
sig 24

David Scheidt writes:

Or is the delay somewhy desired?

A little play is desirable, to prevent inadvertant
application of the brake.

Amazing - that makes so much sense! Thank you.

But it's not the best possible solution; it is
simple and cheap, which might make it the
best implementation.

Ha! Indeed, I'm not daydreaming of turning my
workshop-on-the-move into NASA

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573