Another Helmet Thread

On 22/06/13 15:22, wrote:

I simply said that helmeted cyclists seem to hit their heads more
than unhelmeted cyclists.

Do you really doubt that?

Based on personal experience, yes. I've probably crashed about a dozen
times at least, including in races and off road. Never damaged a single
helmet.

--
JS

On Sunday, June 23, 2013 6:46:23 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 22/06/13 15:22, fk wrote:



I simply said that helmeted cyclists seem to hit their heads more

than unhelmeted cyclists.



Do you really doubt that?



Based on personal experience, yes. I've probably crashed about a dozen

times at least, including in races and off road. Never damaged a single

helmet.

I'm talking about the huge number of claims that "My helmet got dented! If I hadn't worn it, I wouldn't be here today!"

First, those claims certainly seem to outnumber the counts of serious head injuries, even if we include the serious head injuries that occurred while wearing helmets.

Second, there's the simple geometry. The helmet is bigger than the head. That alone is bound to cause more impacts. If helmets were 15" diameter instead of 10", there would be more impacts yet - and, I suppose, even more "My helmet saved me!!!" stories.

Seems to me that going from hard shell to microshell was another brilliant sales strategy by helmet manufacturers, beyond the weight reduction. "Look! It's dented! It saved me!" seems to have become a much more common claim. Yet I've seen a helmet visibly damaged by a three foot drop from the back bumper of a car. :-/

- Frank Krygowski

On 24/06/13 14:33, wrote:
On Sunday, June 23, 2013 6:46:23 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 22/06/13 15:22, fk wrote:



I simply said that helmeted cyclists seem to hit their heads
more

than unhelmeted cyclists.



Do you really doubt that?



Based on personal experience, yes. I've probably crashed about a
dozen

times at least, including in races and off road. Never damaged a
single

helmet.

I'm talking about the huge number of claims that "My helmet got
dented! If I hadn't worn it, I wouldn't be here today!"

First, those claims certainly seem to outnumber the counts of serious
head injuries, even if we include the serious head injuries that
occurred while wearing helmets.

Do you have actual data, or is this just your impression?

Do you have a count of all falls and collisions, and information as to
whether a helmet was being worn at the time or not, and whether the head
or helmet hit something and was damaged?

Second, there's the simple geometry. The helmet is bigger than the
head. That alone is bound to cause more impacts. If helmets were
15" diameter instead of 10", there would be more impacts yet - and, I
suppose, even more "My helmet saved me!!!" stories.

Geometry aside, we'll never know for sure because no one will reproduce
their accident for us to test the hypothesis.

Seems to me that going from hard shell to microshell was another
brilliant sales strategy by helmet manufacturers, beyond the weight
reduction. "Look! It's dented! It saved me!" seems to have become
a much more common claim. Yet I've seen a helmet visibly damaged by
a three foot drop from the back bumper of a car. :-/

You have high bumpers.

I had one of those hardshell helmets back in the 80's. Made by C&D, and
known locally as "Crash & Die". No ventilation except a few small
holes, and about 10mm of soft foam patches to hold the hard shell off
your head. I doubt that it would reduce G's very much at all. It would
have done a fine job of reducing grazes - if you melted your brain on a
hot day and fell off.

--
JS

On Monday, June 24, 2013 1:22:50 AM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 24/06/13 14:33, fk wrote:


First, those claims certainly seem to outnumber the counts of serious

head injuries, even if we include the serious head injuries that

occurred while wearing helmets.



Do you have actual data, or is this just your impression?

It's just my impression. I'm sure there is no national database of "My helmet saved my life!" claims. (Although there are helmet-pushing organizations that collect such stories, and urge people to write such stories and send them to various publications.)

But you might ask yourself how many such stories you've heard first hand, and compare with the number of bike fatalities of people you've known first hand.

- Frank Krygowski

On 25/06/13 06:42, wrote:
On Monday, June 24, 2013 1:22:50 AM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 24/06/13 14:33, fk wrote:


First, those claims certainly seem to outnumber the counts of
serious

head injuries, even if we include the serious head injuries that

occurred while wearing helmets.



Do you have actual data, or is this just your impression?

It's just my impression. I'm sure there is no national database of
"My helmet saved my life!" claims.

I thought as much.

But you might ask yourself how many such stories you've heard first
hand, and compare with the number of bike fatalities of people you've
known first hand.


Sorry, I don't keep count of stories. I recall one such conversation
with a guy from the racing club this year, who was hit from behind and
suffered brain damage. It's difficult to argue with a bloke who almost
died at the scene.

I also don't keep count of fatalities. There may not be any that I knew
first hand - though over 25 years of riding, I've known quite a few but
not kept in contact with many.

The most recent death close to home was a fellow I may have bumped into
from time to time, who collided with a 4x4 when the driver failed to
give way. He put his head through the side window. I don't know what
the cause of death was. It might have been blood loss from a severed
artery for all I know, or a snapped neck.

Just out of interest, "Please give your thoughts and prayers for the
community of Townsville and the family and loved ones of a woman killed
yesterday morning while riding her bicycle in tragic circumstances. The
woman was riding with three fellow riders when a truck driver attempting
to overtake collided with the group.
The eighth bike rider fatality in eight weeks, across six states, all of
which were the result of collision with a motor vehicle. We understand
that at least half of these collisions occurred with the driver
approaching from behind."

Hmm, statistical anomaly? I hope so.

--
JS

Wadely may be in an area where people may try social engineering as a rational democratic exercise rather than something else you may decide to type in.

On Monday, June 24, 2013 6:54:18 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
On 25/06/13 06:42, fk wrote:

On Monday, June 24, 2013 1:22:50 AM UTC-4, James wrote:

On 24/06/13 14:33, fk wrote:





First, those claims certainly seem to outnumber the counts of

serious



head injuries, even if we include the serious head injuries that



occurred while wearing helmets.







Do you have actual data, or is this just your impression?



It's just my impression. I'm sure there is no national database of

"My helmet saved my life!" claims.



I thought as much.



But you might ask yourself how many such stories you've heard first

hand, and compare with the number of bike fatalities of people you've

known first hand.





Sorry, I don't keep count of stories. I recall one such conversation

with a guy from the racing club this year, who was hit from behind and

suffered brain damage. It's difficult to argue with a bloke who almost

died at the scene.



I also don't keep count of fatalities. There may not be any that I knew

first hand - though over 25 years of riding, I've known quite a few but

not kept in contact with many.



The most recent death close to home was a fellow I may have bumped into

from time to time, who collided with a 4x4 when the driver failed to

give way. He put his head through the side window. I don't know what

the cause of death was. It might have been blood loss from a severed

artery for all I know, or a snapped neck.



Just out of interest, "Please give your thoughts and prayers for the

community of Townsville and the family and loved ones of a woman killed

yesterday morning while riding her bicycle in tragic circumstances. The

woman was riding with three fellow riders when a truck driver attempting

to overtake collided with the group.

The eighth bike rider fatality in eight weeks, across six states, all of

which were the result of collision with a motor vehicle. We understand

that at least half of these collisions occurred with the driver

approaching from behind."



Hmm, statistical anomaly? I hope so.

I hope so too.

I've had six friends who have died in traffic accidents, but all were in or on motor vehicles, none on bikes or walking. (One guy was riding his motorcycle - same year & make as mine - with helmet.) Given the usual causes of death in vehicle crashes, it's likely that the car & truck deaths were mostly brain injuries. One definitely was. But news articles, etc. almost never let the public know that fact.

Except for bicycle deaths, that is.

- Frank Krygowski