Scofflaw Cyclists in Boston

On 19/10/2010 01:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 18, 6:24 am, Phil W wrote:
Tom Sherman considered Mon,
18 Oct 2010 03:25:10 -0500 the perfect time to write:


Can we give Boston [1] back to the British?

What makes you think we'd want it?
We're still getting along fine with the original

Well, you'd automatically get a baseball team out of the deal. And
baseball is more exciting than cricket. Why, it features a full 14
minutes of action per two-hour game!
http://tinyurl.com/2cupyob

Don't you mean rounders? :-)

On Oct 18, 5:55*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 18, 5:51*pm, Tom Sherman °_°

wrote:

I was not referring to violating traffic laws, but the general rudeness
and hostility of the motorists. *Rude and hostile motorists are very
rare in Iowa.

FWIW: *I was at a bike club slide show once, where a guy who biked
cross country with a friend talked about how terrified they were of
Iowa. *He said as soon as they crossed the state line, they got buzzed
by several passing cars, so they fled into Minnesota before the day
was out.

My wife and I were amazed at his fear, because we found Iowans
courteous in the extreme. *There were several instances where we had
to control narrow lanes on highways, and big-rig semi drivers stayed
well back, patiently waiting until it was clear to pass. *People in
mom & pop diners came up to us and talked about our traveling, a
farmer in a feed company cap, flannel shirt and suspenders talked
about the Raleigh International he used to ride, and so on.

Our theory was that the RAGBRAI ride must bring excitement and money
to the small towns it passes through on its ever-changing route, so
locals hope politeness to cyclists will lure it.

Most of rural America is that way, except for parts of Appalachia and
Montana -- no offense to our Montanan and Appalachian friends. And
you have to differrentiate between touring cyclists and commuters --
the former being a novelty and the latter being a nuisance (from a
driver's perspective). When I rode through the mid-mid-west (Kansas,
Illinois, Missourri), I was actually invited to stay in homes and
churches, etc. -- I never got invites when I was in the big city. And
about the Appalachia, it wasn't all bad -- I was riding through a run
down dusty little "Last Picture Show" coal town when a truck pulled up
along side me. I thought I was going to get shotgunned, but instead,
the driver popped a beer and handed it down to me. I declined, but
politely.-- Jay Beattie.

I learned not to talk politics. I have no doubt that population
density makes a lot of people/drivers grumpy. -- Jay Beattie.

On 10/18/2010 7:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 18, 6:24 am, Phil W wrote:
Tom Sherman considered Mon,
18 Oct 2010 03:25:10 -0500 the perfect time to write:


Can we give Boston [1] back to the British?

What makes you think we'd want it?
We're still getting along fine with the original

Well, you'd automatically get a baseball team out of the deal. And
baseball is more exciting than cricket. Why, it features a full 14
minutes of action per two-hour game!
http://tinyurl.com/2cupyob

Red Sox, Patriots, and Celtics - three more reasons to dislike Boston.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 10/18/2010 7:55 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 18, 5:51 pm, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:

I was not referring to violating traffic laws, but the general rudeness
and hostility of the motorists. Rude and hostile motorists are very
rare in Iowa.

FWIW: I was at a bike club slide show once, where a guy who biked
cross country with a friend talked about how terrified they were of
Iowa. He said as soon as they crossed the state line, they got buzzed
by several passing cars, so they fled into Minnesota before the day
was out.

My wife and I were amazed at his fear, because we found Iowans
courteous in the extreme. There were several instances where we had
to control narrow lanes on highways, and big-rig semi drivers stayed
well back, patiently waiting until it was clear to pass. People in
mom& pop diners came up to us and talked about our traveling, a
farmer in a feed company cap, flannel shirt and suspenders talked
about the Raleigh International he used to ride, and so on.
[...]

I often ride on several arterial streets (including "rush hour"), there
being no good alternate routes. As of yet, no honking, yelling, or
aggressive tailgating when I take the lane, or buzz passing when I get
to a place where I can safely move to the right.

Would that happen in Boston?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 10/18/2010 5:38 PM, bjw wrote:
On Oct 18, 1:25 am, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
On 10/18/2010 1:58 AM, bjw aka Ben Weiner wrote:



On Oct 17, 1:10 pm, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
Seehttp://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/100870/505039 for scofflaw
cyclists breaking about every traffic law possible - the end result of
no enforcement of the rules of the road on cyclists?

Ignore the title that says "NYC" - unless buses in NYC advertise Boston
radio stations.

I watched the first 2.5 minutes, then I got bored of waiting
for something to provoke self-righteous indignation.

He even used a hand signal in the first few seconds of the
video, before he turns left around the cop car.

Seriously, have you witnessed Boston road manners?

Just because a lot of people act a certain way does not make it moral.

Traffic laws aren't about enforcing morality. They aren't
even about enforcing ethics. They are about making
traffic safe and, to some extent, efficient.

I don't ride like those guys, nor do I think people should ride
like those guys. But I also don't ride around shaking my
finger at every person I see splitting lanes or riding around
a bus, and blaming them for the way cyclists are treated as
second-class citizens in the US.

When I see the local cops enforcing bicycle laws and issuing
tickets, it's usually at essentially safe intersections where it
is easy to set up a rolling-the-stop-sign trap, not at places
where dangerous behavior actually occurs.

Ben

MA law says that, for a speeding conviction, the speed must be recorded
for 1/4 mile. That effectively makes most of the city impossible to police.

On 10/18/2010 5:53 PM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/18/2010 7:38 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 10/18/2010 4:25 AM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/18/2010 1:58 AM, bjw aka Ben Weiner wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:10 pm, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
Seehttp://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/100870/505039 for scofflaw
cyclists breaking about every traffic law possible - the end result of
no enforcement of the rules of the road on cyclists?

Ignore the title that says "NYC" - unless buses in NYC advertise
Boston
radio stations.


I watched the first 2.5 minutes, then I got bored of waiting
for something to provoke self-righteous indignation.

He even used a hand signal in the first few seconds of the
video, before he turns left around the cop car.

Seriously, have you witnessed Boston road manners?

Just because a lot of people act a certain way does not make it moral.

"Morality" is a complex subject. By the following theory, you'd be
classified as a conservative, me, a liberal. Maybe that explains why you
like Iowa and I like Massachusetts.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t11828205jt42001/

"Researchers in moral psychology and social justice have agreed that
morality is about matters of harm, rights, and justice. On this
definition of morality, conservative opposition to social justice
programs appears to be immoral, and has been explained as a product of
various non-moral processes such as system justification or social
dominance orientation. In this article we argue that, from an
anthropological perspective, the moral domain is usually much broader,
encompassing many more aspects of social life and valuing institutions
as much or more than individuals. We present theoretical and empirical
reasons for believing that there are five psychological systems that
provide the foundations for the world’s many moralities. The five
foundations are psychological preparations for detecting and reacting
emotionally to issues related to harm/care, fairness/reciprocity,
ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity. Political
liberals have moral intuitions primarily based upon the first two
foundations, and therefore misunderstand the moral motivations of
political conservatives, who generally rely upon all five foundations."
[...]

How is being rude and hostile (Boston motorists) liberal, and being
friendly and accommodating (Iowa motorists) conservative? I would say
the opposite it true.


That's not the point. The cite infers that liberals are less apt to put
a moral spin on something like disobeying traffic laws if they feel that
behavior doesn't present harm or unfairness. Conservatives are more
likely to also factor in majority values, deference to authority and
ideological purity. I'd say you and Frank have conservative outlooks
based on those criteria, while some of the rest of us are decidedly more
liberal. There are similar gross population differences between MA and
OH/IA. We live in different worlds, socially and geographically.

On Oct 18, 10:04*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
*When I rode through the mid-mid-west (Kansas,
Illinois, Missourri), I was actually invited to stay in homes and
churches, etc. -- I never got invites when I was in the big city.

For years, I'd snag touring cyclists passing through our town and
invite them to camp in our yard, or sometimes to stay in our house.

Now we're Warm Showers hosts. It's been lots of fun.

- Frank Krygowski

On 10/19/2010 8:11 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 10/18/2010 5:53 PM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/18/2010 7:38 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 10/18/2010 4:25 AM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/18/2010 1:58 AM, bjw aka Ben Weiner wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:10 pm, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
Seehttp://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/100870/505039 for scofflaw
cyclists breaking about every traffic law possible - the end
result of
no enforcement of the rules of the road on cyclists?

Ignore the title that says "NYC" - unless buses in NYC advertise
Boston
radio stations.


I watched the first 2.5 minutes, then I got bored of waiting
for something to provoke self-righteous indignation.

He even used a hand signal in the first few seconds of the
video, before he turns left around the cop car.

Seriously, have you witnessed Boston road manners?

Just because a lot of people act a certain way does not make it moral.

"Morality" is a complex subject. By the following theory, you'd be
classified as a conservative, me, a liberal. Maybe that explains why you
like Iowa and I like Massachusetts.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t11828205jt42001/

"Researchers in moral psychology and social justice have agreed that
morality is about matters of harm, rights, and justice. On this
definition of morality, conservative opposition to social justice
programs appears to be immoral, and has been explained as a product of
various non-moral processes such as system justification or social
dominance orientation. In this article we argue that, from an
anthropological perspective, the moral domain is usually much broader,
encompassing many more aspects of social life and valuing institutions
as much or more than individuals. We present theoretical and empirical
reasons for believing that there are five psychological systems that
provide the foundations for the world’s many moralities. The five
foundations are psychological preparations for detecting and reacting
emotionally to issues related to harm/care, fairness/reciprocity,
ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity. Political
liberals have moral intuitions primarily based upon the first two
foundations, and therefore misunderstand the moral motivations of
political conservatives, who generally rely upon all five foundations."
[...]

How is being rude and hostile (Boston motorists) liberal, and being
friendly and accommodating (Iowa motorists) conservative? I would say
the opposite it true.


That's not the point.

It was *My* point.

The cite infers that liberals are less apt to put
a moral spin on something like disobeying traffic laws if they feel that
behavior doesn't present harm or unfairness.

Scofflaw cyclists *do* present harm and unfairness.

Conservatives are more
likely to also factor in majority values, deference to authority and
ideological purity. I'd say you and Frank have conservative outlooks
based on those criteria,

I would say Peter Cole has made a mistake in his judgment.

while some of the rest of us are decidedly more
liberal. There are similar gross population differences between MA and
OH/IA. We live in different worlds, socially and geographically.

And one world has a better quality of life than the other.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Tom Sherman °_° writes:

[...]

I often ride on several arterial streets (including "rush hour"),
there being no good alternate routes. As of yet, no honking, yelling,
or aggressive tailgating when I take the lane, or buzz passing when I
get to a place where I can safely move to the right.

Would that happen in Boston?

In my experience, Massachusetts drivers (I can't speak for Boston
proper, don't spend much time there) are reasonably tolerant of bicycle
traffic. They are used to dealing with folk traffic law, unorthodox
vehicular maneuvers, and treating each intersection misdesign as an
exercise in local knowledge; they get used to bicycles quickly. (Green
arrows do mystify them).

They will slowly roll in front of you in order to make a left turn, but
they will do that if you are driving, too.

On 10/19/2010 2:13 PM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/19/2010 8:11 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 10/18/2010 5:53 PM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/18/2010 7:38 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 10/18/2010 4:25 AM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/18/2010 1:58 AM, bjw aka Ben Weiner wrote:
On Oct 17, 1:10 pm, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
Seehttp://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/100870/505039 for scofflaw
cyclists breaking about every traffic law possible - the end
result of
no enforcement of the rules of the road on cyclists?

Ignore the title that says "NYC" - unless buses in NYC advertise
Boston
radio stations.


I watched the first 2.5 minutes, then I got bored of waiting
for something to provoke self-righteous indignation.

He even used a hand signal in the first few seconds of the
video, before he turns left around the cop car.

Seriously, have you witnessed Boston road manners?

Just because a lot of people act a certain way does not make it moral.

"Morality" is a complex subject. By the following theory, you'd be
classified as a conservative, me, a liberal. Maybe that explains why
you
like Iowa and I like Massachusetts.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t11828205jt42001/

"Researchers in moral psychology and social justice have agreed that
morality is about matters of harm, rights, and justice. On this
definition of morality, conservative opposition to social justice
programs appears to be immoral, and has been explained as a product of
various non-moral processes such as system justification or social
dominance orientation. In this article we argue that, from an
anthropological perspective, the moral domain is usually much broader,
encompassing many more aspects of social life and valuing institutions
as much or more than individuals. We present theoretical and empirical
reasons for believing that there are five psychological systems that
provide the foundations for the world’s many moralities. The five
foundations are psychological preparations for detecting and reacting
emotionally to issues related to harm/care, fairness/reciprocity,
ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity. Political
liberals have moral intuitions primarily based upon the first two
foundations, and therefore misunderstand the moral motivations of
political conservatives, who generally rely upon all five foundations."
[...]

How is being rude and hostile (Boston motorists) liberal, and being
friendly and accommodating (Iowa motorists) conservative? I would say
the opposite it true.


That's not the point.

It was *My* point.

I thought you asked a question.


The cite infers that liberals are less apt to put
a moral spin on something like disobeying traffic laws if they feel that
behavior doesn't present harm or unfairness.

Scofflaw cyclists *do* present harm and unfairness.

How?


Conservatives are more
likely to also factor in majority values, deference to authority and
ideological purity. I'd say you and Frank have conservative outlooks
based on those criteria,

I would say Peter Cole has made a mistake in his judgment.

Sorry, but if the shoe fits...


while some of the rest of us are decidedly more
liberal. There are similar gross population differences between MA and
OH/IA. We live in different worlds, socially and geographically.

And one world has a better quality of life than the other.

There you go, doing that thing you do, again.