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Breaking Spokes



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 29th 04, 11:00 PM
Roger Zoul
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Default Breaking Spokes

This is my bike:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMode...u ybug.j27008

which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it until April 17,
now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount recently.

My bike has these wheels:

"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"

I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion that they are
somehow designed for speed

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear wheel and
it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the LBS. I did another
30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route was fairly easy in terms of
hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I popped another spoke
on the rear wheel on a route similar to the first one, but longer. I ended
up walking home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I should
have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. I
generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in upstate
SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it at or above 60. I
do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes hard to know
what gear i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive -- some look really
hard but turn out to be easy while others look easy but turn out to be
hard -- what's up with that?).

Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.


Ads
  #2  
Old May 29th 04, 11:53 PM
Rick Warner
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Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes

On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:


Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear wheel and
it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the LBS. I did another
30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route was fairly easy in terms of
hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I popped another spoke
on the rear wheel on a route similar to the first one, but longer. I ended
up walking home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I should
have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).


I will be even more radical. Those wheels are good for show, and for
lighter riders. But they are a pain from several aspects. If it
were me, I would get a good set of custom built wheels, with
sufficient spokes and strength to handle you and your riding style.
Actually, it was me. The Rolfs are in the storage area, and the
custom made wheels (Open Pro rims, Ultegra hubs) are on the bike.

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. I
generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in upstate
SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it at or above 60. I
do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes hard to know
what gear i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive -- some look really
hard but turn out to be easy while others look easy but turn out to be
hard -- what's up with that?).


Poppycock. The problem is the wheel, not your riding style. I ride a
fair amount, and a lot of it is in the hills (6000-8000 miles/year,
400K-500K ft of climbing). When climbing you should be shifting so
that you can turn a good cadence and keeping your HR under control,
not because it is better for your wheels. If your riding style is the
problem (which I do not believe) then wheels that fit your riding
style are the solution; match the equipment to you, not you to the
equipment.

- rick
  #3  
Old May 30th 04, 12:38 AM
dianne_1234
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Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes

On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:

This is my bike:
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMode...u ybug.j27008


Nice bike!

My bike has these wheels:
"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"


Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really over a
century old. This design detail has nothing to do with your wheel
breaking spokes.

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.


A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28 spokes, but still
not a cause for spokes to break.

The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping


I agree.

and that I should have the wheel rebuilt


This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the spokes are
a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.

(I don't know what that means yet).


A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's damaged, and
re-tensioning the wheel.

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel.


Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be able to
pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes by doing so.

Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.


Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly in your
wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken spokes:

1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the spokes are a
good fit in almost any hub's holes. If 7.0mm or more, have them
replaced.[1] Dimension E is what you're measuring, shown he
http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm

2. Replace any broken spokes.

3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100 kg average
tension on the right side spokes. Lube nipples and spoke threads as
needed. The shop can easily do this.

** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken spokes: **
4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of four spokes
in your hands. Go around the wheel repeating until every spoke has
been momentarily over-tensioned like this.

Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like this, but few
squeeze hard enough or know that this relieves stress in the spokes
and prevents broken spokes. The harder the squeeze, the better the
resistance to spoke breakage.

How hard?
- Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands otherwise.
- Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be about to
break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to break a spoke! :-)

5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.

[1] More details on elbow length he
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm

[2] More details on stress relieving spokes he
http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html


  #4  
Old May 30th 04, 01:15 AM
Craig Young
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Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes

Only one more thing to add - at 235 to 240 pounds, a 24/28 spoke wheel
pair is probably too few. But, it is probably cheaper to rebuild and
stress relieve the wheels than to buy new ones, so I would try that
first. If you can remember, did you hear any pinging noises coming from
your wheels when the bike was brand new? That is a telltale sign of an
improperly stress-releived wheel, and indicates spokes seating and
unwinding, the result of which is a wheel that is at too low of tension.

Even experienced wheelbuilders fail to properly stress revieve spokes -
good advice from dianne..

dianne_1234 wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:


This is my bike:
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMode...u ybug.j27008



Nice bike!


My bike has these wheels:
"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"



Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really over a
century old. This design detail has nothing to do with your wheel
breaking spokes.


I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.



A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28 spokes, but still
not a cause for spokes to break.


The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping



I agree.


and that I should have the wheel rebuilt



This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the spokes are
a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.


(I don't know what that means yet).



A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's damaged, and
re-tensioning the wheel.


The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel.



Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be able to
pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes by doing so.


Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.



Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly in your
wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken spokes:

1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the spokes are a
good fit in almost any hub's holes. If 7.0mm or more, have them
replaced.[1] Dimension E is what you're measuring, shown he
http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm

2. Replace any broken spokes.

3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100 kg average
tension on the right side spokes. Lube nipples and spoke threads as
needed. The shop can easily do this.

** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken spokes: **
4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of four spokes
in your hands. Go around the wheel repeating until every spoke has
been momentarily over-tensioned like this.

Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like this, but few
squeeze hard enough or know that this relieves stress in the spokes
and prevents broken spokes. The harder the squeeze, the better the
resistance to spoke breakage.

How hard?
- Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands otherwise.
- Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be about to
break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to break a spoke! :-)

5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.

[1] More details on elbow length he
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm

[2] More details on stress relieving spokes he
http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html


  #5  
Old May 30th 04, 01:24 AM
jim beam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes

i second all this from dianne, but add one thing: the quality of the
spoke is very important. no amount of "stress relief" can compensate
for poor material quality or production practice by the spoke's
manufacturer. stick to a known brand. d.t. have the majority of the
u.s. custom build market - they make a good reliable spoke. sapim have
the majority of the european peloton and are courageous enough to
publish fatigue tables for their products. choose your poison accordingly.

dianne_1234 wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
wrote:


This is my bike:
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMode...u ybug.j27008



Nice bike!


My bike has these wheels:
"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"



Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really over a
century old. This design detail has nothing to do with your wheel
breaking spokes.


I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.



A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28 spokes, but still
not a cause for spokes to break.


The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping



I agree.


and that I should have the wheel rebuilt



This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the spokes are
a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.


(I don't know what that means yet).



A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's damaged, and
re-tensioning the wheel.


The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel.



Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be able to
pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes by doing so.


Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.



Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly in your
wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken spokes:

1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the spokes are a
good fit in almost any hub's holes. If 7.0mm or more, have them
replaced.[1] Dimension E is what you're measuring, shown he
http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm

2. Replace any broken spokes.

3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100 kg average
tension on the right side spokes. Lube nipples and spoke threads as
needed. The shop can easily do this.

** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken spokes: **
4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of four spokes
in your hands. Go around the wheel repeating until every spoke has
been momentarily over-tensioned like this.

Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like this, but few
squeeze hard enough or know that this relieves stress in the spokes
and prevents broken spokes. The harder the squeeze, the better the
resistance to spoke breakage.

How hard?
- Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands otherwise.
- Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be about to
break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to break a spoke! :-)

5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.

[1] More details on elbow length he
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm

[2] More details on stress relieving spokes he
http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html



  #6  
Old May 30th 04, 03:17 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes

Roger Zoul writes:

This is my bike:


http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMode...u ybug.j27008

I take it you meant:

http://tinyurl.com/2lo5v

which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it until
April 17, now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair
amount recently.


My bike has these wheels:


"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"


I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion that they
are somehow designed for speed.


Not really. They are designed to make you think of speed, the
difference being only measurable with a stop watch at maximum effort.
They aren't lighter nor are they pleasant to ride in winds.

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.


Work on that.

Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the
LBS. I did another 30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route
was fairly easy in terms of hills. Today, while on a ride at about
25 miles out, I popped another spoke on the rear wheel on a route
similar to the first one, but longer. I ended up walking home. The
LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over in .misc
think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I should
have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).


The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills
in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear
wheel. I generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of
hills here in upstate SC - Greenville) according to cadence, trying
to keep it at or above 60.


The guy doesn't understand bicycles. The torque in a rear wheel is
independent of gear ratio for any given speed in the flat and is
smoother with lower peaks for hill climbing in big gears (low
cadence). Therefore, he is making this up as a cover for his poor
wheel building. I suspect he doesn't understand stress relieving
spokes after building a wheel.

I do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes
hard to know what gear I really need to be in (I find hills
deceptive -- some look really hard but turn out to be easy while
others look easy but turn out to be hard -- what's up with that?).


I think you are confusing the effects of short hills with long ones,
or ones that you approach rested or already near your limit. RR
under- or over-passes are steep hills but insignificant as climbs.
All that has nothing to do with the reliability of your wheels. Just
the same, low spoke count wheels are not as durable as conventional 36
spoke road wheels.

Jobst Brandt

  #7  
Old May 30th 04, 05:59 AM
RWM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes


"Roger Zoul" wrote in message
...
This is my bike:


http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMode...u ybug.j27008

which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it until April

17,
now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount recently.

My bike has these wheels:

"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"

I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion that they are
somehow designed for speed

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear wheel

and
it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the LBS. I did

another
30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route was fairly easy in terms

of
hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I popped another

spoke
on the rear wheel on a route similar to the first one, but longer. I

ended
up walking home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks

over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I should
have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. I
generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in

upstate
SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it at or above 60.

I
do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes hard to

know
what gear i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive -- some look

really
hard but turn out to be easy while others look easy but turn out to be
hard -- what's up with that?).

Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.


I have had lots of problems with breaking rear wheel spokes. My advice is
to look at the Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels. I replied to another post
earlier today with my results with 36 spoke hand built wheels. The summary
is that I have had horrible results with them but great results with the
Ksyrium Elites. It know that this goes completely against the overall
feelings of most of the vocal members of this group but the Ksyrium Elite
wheel has lasted more that three times longer than any of the hand built
wheels...and it had made zero trips to the LBS to get trued. Before anyone
says that I just got a bad builder I had the wheel built at three different
places. Each time I spoke to the owner, or lead tech, to explain my
situation and asked that the wheel be built by their best wheel builder.


  #8  
Old May 30th 04, 02:50 PM
Qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes

roger- This is my bike:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkMode...sionIdroot=0md
o1uybug.j27008 BRBR
I had about 200 miles on it until April 17,
now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount recently.
BRBR

My bike has these wheels:
"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set" BRBR
I weigh 235 to 240 lbs. BRBR
Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear wheel and
it got out of true. BRBR


The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. BRBR

The bike shop owner is clueless, particularly if she sold you the bicycle. Go
to her, in private, and tell her she needs to have an appropriate for you
wheelset built. Shimano hubs onto a 36 hole rim, built well. If she won't, ask
for your money back and go to a bike shop that has a clue. Also call
Specialized.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
  #9  
Old May 30th 04, 02:53 PM
Qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes

craig- If you can remember, did you hear any pinging noises coming from
your wheels when the bike was brand new? That is a telltale sign of an
improperly stress-releived wheel, and indicates spokes seating and
unwinding, BRBR

Stress relieving does not necessarily take windup out of spokes. They are two
different issues, with two different 'techniques'.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
  #10  
Old May 30th 04, 02:55 PM
Qui si parla Campagnolo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Breaking Spokes

bobmc- It know that this goes completely against the overall
feelings of most of the vocal members of this group but the Ksyrium Elite
wheel has lasted more that three times longer than any of the hand built
wheels.. BRBR

Then ya still need a new wheelbuilder.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 




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