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I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through
1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately. I'm still happy with my bike, which I built back in about 1984. I'm not tempted to buy anything new, because while I can see the improvements, to me, they don't justify the costs. My bike is comfortable and reasonably efficient. I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels? Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it can't help. Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left". When I google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I wonder why people to bother archiving such inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple answer is that they do it simply because they can. Tom Reingold Noo Joizy |
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#2
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Tom Reingold wrote:
I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through 1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately. SNIP more spokes make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels? Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it can't help. Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left". Tom Reingold Noo Joizy There is a lot of marketing going on with: low spoke count wheels silly spoking patterns, spoke shapes/materials, hub attachments, ri shapes/attachments. I agree with your conclusion about durability.. and think of all the special replacement parts, tools, techniques, etc The concept of left rear radial spoking,, with all the heads out i directed at the rear dishing situation, but manufacturers of standar rear hubs do NOT warranty such applications. Some rear rims are no available to help with the dish situation... they offset the spokes t the Non-Drive-Side. Some 6/7 speed 135 mm OLD mountain bicycle hub also helped with the dish situation. If you combine a 6/7 speed 135 m OLD hub with a rim like th Velocity Synergy, you can arrive at minimally dished wheel. Velocity also makes the Aerohead 700C (and 650 I think) with Offset Spoke Bed. Most road hubs are still 130 mm an most mountain 135 mm. The things you learned in "the Bicycle Wheel" b Jobst Brandt still hold up. "Conventional wheels built exceptionall well" is still a most worthy effort. Well, you may have opened a "ca of worms", but this is the forum - |
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Tom Reingold wrote in message ...
I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through 1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately. My tenure in bike shops was '82 to '87. I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels? Most people simply don't ride very much so durability isn't much of an issue. When I raced in the mid '80's I did buy a pair of Roval wheels. At the time they were about as high tech as you could get but I saved them for racing only. The rest of the time I rode good old 36 spoke wheels. Now I see people riding expensive low spoke count wheels all the time. I guess they have more money than time to train. Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left". The dishing problem is worse than ever. A few years ago I built my first 9 speed wheel. There is a much greater disparity in spoke tension than when I worked in shops and narrow 7 speed was popular. When I google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I wonder why people to bother archiving such inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple answer is that they do it simply because they can. Yeah, I look back and say, "I can't believe I posted that!" a lot. When I first started reading and posting stuff on the newsgroups I was passing on a lot of incorrect "conventional wisdom" I learned in my bike shop days. Live and learn eh? Back when I was System Administrator at the University of North Texas I cautioned students to be careful what they posted because future employers could remember what you posted and hold it against you. I had no idea that Dejanews would save all of our posts for posterity though! I remember reading your posts a dozen years ago. Hasta, -- Bruce Jackson - Sr. Systems Programmer - DMSP, a M/A/R/C Group company |
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#5
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Tom Reingold wrote:
I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through 1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately. I'm still happy with my bike, which I built back in about 1984. I'm not tempted to buy anything new, because while I can see the improvements, to me, they don't justify the costs. My bike is comfortable and reasonably efficient. I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels? Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it can't help. Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left". When I google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I wonder why people to bother archiving such inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple answer is that they do it simply because they can. The low spoke counts are for aerodynamics - the rims are deeper and the strength (and weight) is in the rim. This isn't the most efficient way to do it, but for fast riding, especially time trialling, there are benefits. Radial spoking really isn't a problem if the hub is designed for it. |
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Tom Reingold writes:
I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through 1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately. Man, that's ancient history! I'm still happy with my bike, which I built back in about 1984. I'm not tempted to buy anything new, because while I can see the improvements, to me, they don't justify the costs. My bike is comfortable and reasonably efficient. Well I get along fine with my 6-speed SunTour New Winner Pro FW on my 1960's 120mm (rear) Campagnolo Record Hubs. They still have the best QR ever made. I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are reading. Thanks. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels? They all claim to have gotten better but they haven't. We hear about many rim cracks, something uncommon in olden times and they aren't riding wheels as long at that. Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it can't help. There are claims, none of which are significant and many are untrue. Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left". No, but asymmetric rear rims are made to respond to that problem. The main thing is that rear flanges are closer together. As the gear cluster infringes on the right flanges location, the answer has been to move both flanges closer to the center of the hub. This causes such laterally flexible wheels that they dragged on brake pads while climbing standing because the higher mechanical advantage dual pivot brakes must operate with less pad clearance to reach the rim before the hand lever bottoms. Professional riders responded by opening the brake QR on climbs and often descended with only a front brake. In response, Campagnolo came out with a standard 1:1 ratio sidepull caliper with wide clearance. I find these contortions interesting, trying to appease the everyday customer and the professionals who, by using this stuff, sell it. There is still a thread of function in it because professional racers demand equipment that does not interfere with their racing success. When I Google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I wonder why people bother to archive such inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple answer is that they do it simply because they can. I wish they started earlier. I cannot find my ride reports from 1961 to 1989 anywhere. If anyone has even one of them or knows where to find one, please let me know. The guys I rode with would love to have a copy. Jobst Brandt |
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To respond to you all, if we didn't have boutique wheels, and everybody ran
36-hole Ultegra hubs laced to Open Pros with 14/15 DB DTs, then, honestly, reliability would be too high, and a decent chunk out of repair income would be taken out of our revenue. Then again, everyone here is practical and non-flashy, so 36-U-OP-14/15-DB-DT is probably standard *personal* fare. I guess I'm just saying don't bite the hand that feeds you... I'd never guide anyone into a boutique wheel... just today a 250-lb rider came in with ALX330 wheel from a Specialized Allez. He Dorito'ed it with about an inch or two of wave throughout the whole wheel. I immediately suggested a 36-spoke hand-built wheel for him. -- Phil, Squid-in-Training |
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trn32- Yet modern wheels have shockingly
few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels? BRBR No such thing as a free lunch. Low spoke count wheels, with the corresponding heavy rim are all about marketing, not performance, like ohh so much about bicycles these days(threadless, oversized handlebars, compact frames, integrated HS, etc). The best, most reliable, long term wheel solution is the proper choice of rims, spokes and builder, to ensure the wheelset is proper for the rider and their needs. trn- Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are for show BRBR bing, bing, bing, we have a winner!!! Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302 (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene" |
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Daveornee- "Conventional wheels built exceptionally
well" BRBR yer welcome Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302 (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene" |
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phil- I'd never guide anyone into a boutique wheel... just today a 250-lb
rider came in with ALX330 wheel from a Specialized Allez. He Dorito'ed it BRBR Ditto-big gent with Zipp 303 on his Merckx. The guy that sold these to him ought to be fired. Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302 (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene" |
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