You Vill Cycle or Else!

On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 18:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/14/2020 5:41 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 12:08:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I understand that source of bias regarding ratings. But in the
admittedly short discussion resulting from my query to a Bike Friday
email list, I heard no complaints about other brands, only Cateye. And
as I said, my wife's Echowell works perfectly.

Well, obviously the solution to the problem is simple. Buy a Echowell
meter :-)

Yeah, Jeff hinted that too. Trouble is, I've got this mania about fixing
things instead of buying new.

And this really has been educational!

I haven't been following that closely but you haven't fixed it yet,
have you?

You might calculate the value of the time you have spent tinkering
with this easily replaceable gizmo versus what you could have made
mowing lawns for your neighbors :-)

Note: One site seems to list $20 an hour for lawn care :-)
https://skfkdrkwk.wixsite.com/website
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 05:41:37 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, obviously the solution to the problem is simple. Buy a Echowell
meter :-)

Yes, but which model?
http://www.echowell.com.tw/download__en.html
They make 23 different wireless computahs:
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce/cyclecomputer_en/%E7%84%A1%E7%B7%9A.html

Picking one wireless computah at random, I find that it also mentions
a 70cm maximum range, which suggests that it too uses 19KHz
communications:
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce...A/bl9w_en.html
http://www.echowell.com.tw/Product/Download/BL/4403011620_BL15W.pdf
(It's in the fine print in the gray area in the lower right of the
English section.) Do all the low end wireless bicycle computahs use
19KHz?

Frank: You might want to test the range of your wife's Echowell
computah before buying.

John B: [Q] What do you get when you dig in a swamp?
[A] A bigger swamp.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:23:42 +0700, John B. wrote:


You might calculate the value of the time you have spent tinkering with
this easily replaceable gizmo

An irreplacable sense of achievement.

versus what you could have made mowing
lawns for your neighbors :-)

Note: One site seems to list $20 an hour for lawn care :-)

Sounds fine if the guy pushing the mower gets that.
The problem is the parasite who set up a business that subcontract the
job at piece rates. Quality is the first to go.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:08:03 -0000 (UTC), News 2020
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:23:42 +0700, John B. wrote:


You might calculate the value of the time you have spent tinkering with
this easily replaceable gizmo

An irreplacable sense of achievement.

versus what you could have made mowing
lawns for your neighbors :-)

Note: One site seems to list $20 an hour for lawn care :-)

Sounds fine if the guy pushing the mower gets that.
The problem is the parasite who set up a business that subcontract the
job at piece rates. Quality is the first to go.

No, the "name of the game" is to open a business and then hire illegal
immigrants, 'cause they are soooo cheap. AND, they are thankful to get
the money.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 12/14/2020 6:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 05:41:37 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, obviously the solution to the problem is simple. Buy a Echowell
meter :-)

Yes, but which model?
http://www.echowell.com.tw/download__en.html
They make 23 different wireless computahs:
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce/cyclecomputer_en/%E7%84%A1%E7%B7%9A.html

Picking one wireless computah at random, I find that it also mentions
a 70cm maximum range, which suggests that it too uses 19KHz
communications:
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce...A/bl9w_en.html
http://www.echowell.com.tw/Product/Download/BL/4403011620_BL15W.pdf
(It's in the fine print in the gray area in the lower right of the
English section.) Do all the low end wireless bicycle computahs use
19KHz?

Frank: You might want to test the range of your wife's Echowell
computah before buying.

FWIW: My wife's cyclometer is an Echowell Zone-7W, CE0681. The sender is
Echowell T1-X035, same CE number. The documentation also mentions
"umzn7wecho61#"

Her documentation specifies an operating temperature of 32F to 122F. I
never noticed until now, but the Cateye documentation specifies 32F to
104F. However, I have certainly had problems above freezing, hence my
complaint.

Her sender and receiver are mounted where mine used to be, so a few cm
farther than my current setup. Her range seems to be just a few cm more
than mine, even in my present position. That may be because the Echowell
sender is just a bit farther out in front of the brake arm. It's got a
little more direct line of sight.

Interestingly, the instruction sheet for her Echowell says "install the
sensor as close to the main unit as possible and within 45 cm to get a
better wireless performance." It's actually over 60 cm away, but I don't
recall hers ever dropping out. (I do more cold weather riding though.)
Oh, and her sender uses an LR44 battery instead of my CR2032.

Is this horse dead enough? Can we stop beating it?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:17:15 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:08:03 -0000 (UTC), News 2020
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:23:42 +0700, John B. wrote:


You might calculate the value of the time you have spent tinkering
with this easily replaceable gizmo

An irreplacable sense of achievement.

versus what you could have made mowing lawns for your neighbors :-)

Note: One site seems to list $20 an hour for lawn care :-)

Sounds fine if the guy pushing the mower gets that.
The problem is the parasite who set up a business that subcontract the
job at piece rates. Quality is the first to go.

No, the "name of the game" is to open a business and then hire illegal
immigrants, 'cause they are soooo cheap. AND, they are thankful to get
the money.

Our 'illegals'* didn't turn up this year (Australia has basically closed
ts borders for this year and next.) and Fruit & vegetable growers who
have been exploiting them for years are all whining.

*They screwed overseas backpackers by restricting their previous two yer
visa, plus repeat to a one year visa and then telling them they could
stay another year if they spent 90(?) days working on farms.

Of course all the shonks moved into the labour hire industry. and now
thew farmers are pleading doom and gloom and FEAR rising F&V prices. Ho
hum. most of it previosly went OS, to China, and as that is not now
happening**, there is stll plenty to go around.

**China has been imposing import quotas to lift local production, but
also to diversify (wider of choice of supplying countries).

As to lawn moving, it seems to be entirely the perogative of 'retired'
blokes over here. We haven't had any kids touting lawn mowing for decades.

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:20:26 -0000 (UTC), News 2020
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 07:17:15 +0700, John B. wrote:

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 00:08:03 -0000 (UTC), News 2020
wrote:

On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 06:23:42 +0700, John B. wrote:


You might calculate the value of the time you have spent tinkering
with this easily replaceable gizmo

An irreplacable sense of achievement.

versus what you could have made mowing lawns for your neighbors :-)

Note: One site seems to list $20 an hour for lawn care :-)

Sounds fine if the guy pushing the mower gets that.
The problem is the parasite who set up a business that subcontract the
job at piece rates. Quality is the first to go.

No, the "name of the game" is to open a business and then hire illegal
immigrants, 'cause they are soooo cheap. AND, they are thankful to get
the money.

Our 'illegals'* didn't turn up this year (Australia has basically closed
ts borders for this year and next.) and Fruit & vegetable growers who
have been exploiting them for years are all whining.

*They screwed overseas backpackers by restricting their previous two yer
visa, plus repeat to a one year visa and then telling them they could
stay another year if they spent 90(?) days working on farms.

Of course all the shonks moved into the labour hire industry. and now
thew farmers are pleading doom and gloom and FEAR rising F&V prices. Ho
hum. most of it previosly went OS, to China, and as that is not now
happening**, there is stll plenty to go around.

**China has been imposing import quotas to lift local production, but
also to diversify (wider of choice of supplying countries).

As to lawn moving, it seems to be entirely the perogative of 'retired'
blokes over here. We haven't had any kids touting lawn mowing for decades.

Several years ago I visited Perth and was told that, at the time, it
was cheaper to import vegetables from China than to grow them locally.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 20:27:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 12/14/2020 6:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 05:41:37 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Well, obviously the solution to the problem is simple. Buy a Echowell
meter :-)

Yes, but which model?
http://www.echowell.com.tw/download__en.html
They make 23 different wireless computahs:
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce/cyclecomputer_en/%E7%84%A1%E7%B7%9A.html

Picking one wireless computah at random, I find that it also mentions
a 70cm maximum range, which suggests that it too uses 19KHz
communications:
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce...A/bl9w_en.html
http://www.echowell.com.tw/Product/Download/BL/4403011620_BL15W.pdf
(It's in the fine print in the gray area in the lower right of the
English section.) Do all the low end wireless bicycle computahs use
19KHz?

Frank: You might want to test the range of your wife's Echowell
computah before buying.

FWIW: My wife's cyclometer is an Echowell Zone-7W, CE0681. The sender is
Echowell T1-X035, same CE number. The documentation also mentions
"umzn7wecho61#"

I couldn't find anything for those numbers. The "umzn7wecho61#" is
the FCC application ID number. However, nothing found there but not
every model is listed:
https://fccid.io/Y8Y
The numbers also do not follow the Echowell model number sequence.
Echowell seems to print the number on the front of the display. Do
any of the photos here look close?
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce/cyclecomputer_en/%E7%84%A1%E7%B7%9A.html?limit=36
What model number is printed on the instruction sheet? It might have
been a special version made specifically for some retailer or online
shopping site.

Her range seems to be just a few cm more
than mine, even in my present position. That may be because the Echowell
sender is just a bit farther out in front of the brake arm. It's got a
little more direct line of sight.

I looked at the install instructions for various Echowell products.
There was quite a variety of recommended/maximum/minimum/muddled range
figures. I saw 45, 70, 75, and 100cm. Checking the FCC ID pages, I
found models using 40KHz. I would expect these to have roughly the
same range as 19KHz. There was also one using CB at 27MHz:
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce/cyclecomputer_en/%E7%84%A1%E7%B7%9A/ui35_en.html
which includes the claim, "It ensures no interference and cross-talk".
However the install instructions:
http://www.echowell.com.tw/Product/Download/Ui/4403009790_UI25_Installation.pdf
show a range of 75cm or less, which would not be an improvement.

Interestingly, the instruction sheet for her Echowell says "install the
sensor as close to the main unit as possible and within 45 cm to get a
better wireless performance." It's actually over 60 cm away, but I don't
recall hers ever dropping out. (I do more cold weather riding though.)

My guess(tm) is that you're seeing the results of manufacturing and
component variations. Temperature might have an effect to reduce the
range slightly, but the basic range seems to be highly variable. I
suspect the only way you're going to find something that works is to
first test the range.

Oh, and her sender uses an LR44 battery instead of my CR2032.

Retch. The CR2032 is a lithium manganese dioxide, which has a flat
voltage curve over its normal life, and over temperature. The LR44 is
an alkaline cell where the voltage varies substantially with charge
level and temperature. I would expect some performance (range)
deterioration as the cell slowly discharges. Does the transmitter use
two or more LR44 cells?

Is this horse dead enough? Can we stop beating it?

You're no fun. You asked for tech content. I delivered an overdose
of tech. Now you're complaining.

As penitence, I suggest you accost various members of your riding
group or LBS which have similar bicycle computers and perform a range
check. Please remember to take a folding measuring device on your
rides:
https://www.google.com/search?q=metric+cloth+tape+measure&tbm=isch
That will hopefully determine if you have a chance at finding
something that will work reliably at 60cm.

Grumble and Bah Humbug (It's the season).


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 12/15/2020 12:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 14 Dec 2020 20:27:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

FWIW: My wife's cyclometer is an Echowell Zone-7W, CE0681. The sender is
Echowell T1-X035, same CE number. The documentation also mentions
"umzn7wecho61#"

I couldn't find anything for those numbers. The "umzn7wecho61#" is
the FCC application ID number. However, nothing found there but not
every model is listed:
https://fccid.io/Y8Y
The numbers also do not follow the Echowell model number sequence.
Echowell seems to print the number on the front of the display. Do
any of the photos here look close?
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce/cyclecomputer_en/%E7%84%A1%E7%B7%9A.html?limit=36

Hmm. The first of those links triggers a "We saved you from disaster"
window from Avast. The second says "Echowell ... File Not Found."

But I just looked through all the wireless ones at
http://www.echowell.com.tw/ecommerce...%E7%B7%9A.html
and saw nothing like this old one. Remember, it's from 2006 or so.

What model number is printed on the instruction sheet? It might have
been a special version made specifically for some retailer or online
shopping site.

The numbers I gave are from the instruction sheet. ZONE-7W is also on
the top of the display unit, and that CE number is on the bottom.

Interestingly, the instruction sheet for her Echowell says "install the
sensor as close to the main unit as possible and within 45 cm to get a
better wireless performance." It's actually over 60 cm away, but I don't
recall hers ever dropping out. (I do more cold weather riding though.)

My guess(tm) is that you're seeing the results of manufacturing and
component variations. Temperature might have an effect to reduce the
range slightly, but the basic range seems to be highly variable. I
suspect the only way you're going to find something that works is to
first test the range.

Oh, and her sender uses an LR44 battery instead of my CR2032.

Retch.

Yeah, I thought so too, even before you pointed out the temperature
stability of the CR2032.

Does the transmitter use
two or more LR44 cells?

Just one.


Is this horse dead enough? Can we stop beating it?

You're no fun. You asked for tech content. I delivered an overdose
of tech. Now you're complaining.

As penitence, I suggest you accost various members of your riding
group or LBS which have similar bicycle computers and perform a range
check.

Oddly, my best riding friends all seem to use wired computers. Now I
know why!

Actually, my wife's touring bike has what's probably one of the earliest
wireless units - a Cateye Cordless model CC-CL100 that she won at some
sort of bike event in 1992. Its ancient manual says "Always keep the
distance between the upper part of the sensor and the bottom part o fthe
main unit within 50cm." And checking it just now, it does indeed go
blank only a little beyond 50cm. Apparently Cateye doesn't believe in
big safety factors for that spec.

But the very next sentence is telling: "When the battery is getting weak
or the temperature falls, the computer will not receive data
consistently. In such a case, replace the batteries." Note, both the
sender and receive use CR2032 batteries!

So they knew about the temperature issue back then. And the spec sheet
says "Operating Temperature Range 32 F - 104 F"

(My problems have been mostly above 32 F but below 40 F. I don't ride
much in below freezing temperatures any more.)

BTW, the problem with this old Cateye Cordless has not been low
temperatures. It's been the lack of auto startup. My wife has to
remember to push the "S/S" button when she first rolls her bike out, and
half the time she doesn't.

When my wife our daughter and I did our biggest tours (around Ireland
and across the U.S.) I dearly hoped one of our three cyclometers would
show the total mileage at the end. It never happened. My wife often
forgot to start hers, my daughter's got sick by ingesting rain, and my
Avocet's battery died. (Well, the one I used in Ireland got stolen.) It
was designed for a mercury cell, I think, and didn't endure on cells
with other chemistry.

--
- Frank Krygowski