Titanium vs Carbon Fiber

When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble. Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask - whose lifetime?

Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.

Titanium dampens this ringing almost immediately so that I didn't notice it.. Of course now that I have tinnitus from aircraft launches perhaps I don't have as much sensitivity as others. But I can distinctly hear and feel steel.

Steel bike can be made now about the same weight as titanium and perhaps 30% heavier than carbon fiber, but the top end carbon fiber bikes I have had are absolutely NOTHING when compared to the ride of titanium. And i have a rather heavier run of the mill titanium bike.

I will use this titanium bike probably for the remainder of my riding career with the Eddy Merckx aluminum bike as a backup when something requires repair on the Douglas. At the moment I will probably disassemble the aluminum Douglas Vector and set that frameset off so that I have plenty of Campy 10 speed spares for the other two.

Near the end of Wednesday's 50 miler I was riding well up in the big ring again which is something I thought was long gone. I was keeping up with traffic including every stop light in San Francisco from the feeling of it.

You could have never convinced me that the roads would ever again feel relatively smooth. but with the titanium bike they did.

Jay, I would suggest that you borrow a Ti bike and feel this for yourself.

Titanium bikes are extremely sensitive to the proper welding procedures so they can fail but it is almost always very rapidly. If the welds are good the bike is very long term.

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:48:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble. Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask - whose lifetime?

Uh, the lifetime of the original purchaser. It's right there in the warranty.

Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.

I hear that Ti is warm in winter and cool in summer. It is stiff, yet soft and heavy but light. I was riding a Ti frame, and it made the road disappear in front of me. https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...82-800x600.jpg

I do have musical training, and I like the fact that Ti rings with a Tristan chord that is so satisfying and transcendent that I must stop and change my shorts.

-- Jay Beattie.

PS. I rode a Ti frame a long time ago, and it was like a noodle. My assumption is that the material has improved over the last 40 years.

On 5/14/2021 11:10 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:48:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble. Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask - whose lifetime?

Uh, the lifetime of the original purchaser. It's right there in the warranty.

Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.

I hear that Ti is warm in winter and cool in summer. It is stiff, yet soft and heavy but light. I was riding a Ti frame, and it made the road disappear in front of me. https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...82-800x600.jpg

I do have musical training, and I like the fact that Ti rings with a Tristan chord that is so satisfying and transcendent that I must stop and change my shorts.

-- Jay Beattie.

PS. I rode a Ti frame a long time ago, and it was like a noodle. My assumption is that the material has improved over the last 40 years.

Probably not. Noodle-ness has to do with the cross section of the tubes
and the modulus of elasticity of the material. All Ti alloys have very
close to the same modulus, so the material probably hasn't improved in
that respect.

What's probably improved is the choice of tubing diameters and wall
thicknesses, to better compensate for Ti's lower modulus compared to
steel's.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 10:53:10 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/14/2021 11:10 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:48:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble. Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask - whose lifetime?

Uh, the lifetime of the original purchaser. It's right there in the warranty.

Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.

I hear that Ti is warm in winter and cool in summer. It is stiff, yet soft and heavy but light. I was riding a Ti frame, and it made the road disappear in front of me. https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...82-800x600.jpg

I do have musical training, and I like the fact that Ti rings with a Tristan chord that is so satisfying and transcendent that I must stop and change my shorts.

-- Jay Beattie.

PS. I rode a Ti frame a long time ago, and it was like a noodle. My assumption is that the material has improved over the last 40 years.
Probably not. Noodle-ness has to do with the cross section of the tubes
and the modulus of elasticity of the material. All Ti alloys have very
close to the same modulus, so the material probably hasn't improved in
that respect.

What's probably improved is the choice of tubing diameters and wall
thicknesses, to better compensate for Ti's lower modulus compared to
steel's.


--
- Frank Krygowski
I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.
Deacon mark

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 8:10:12 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:48:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble. Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask - whose lifetime?
Uh, the lifetime of the original purchaser. It's right there in the warranty.

Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike "ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing and feeling zones.. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a musical training but it is there.
I hear that Ti is warm in winter and cool in summer. It is stiff, yet soft and heavy but light. I was riding a Ti frame, and it made the road disappear in front of me. https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...82-800x600.jpg

I do have musical training, and I like the fact that Ti rings with a Tristan chord that is so satisfying and transcendent that I must stop and change my shorts.

-- Jay Beattie.

PS. I rode a Ti frame a long time ago, and it was like a noodle. My assumption is that the material has improved over the last 40 years.
I think that you well deserve an Emonda.

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 9:29:14 AM UTC-7, Mark cleary wrote:

I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.
Deacon mark

I've been riding a very long time and the titanium bike I had before was a Colnago and it was flexy as it was a Bititan. I wrote Titanium off after that. I wouldn't have bothered with this if it wasn't so cheap. But it is a great bike in every respect.

On 5/14/2021 8:53 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/14/2021 11:10 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:48:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it
to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble.
Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of
bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend
confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask
- whose lifetime?

Uh, the lifetime of the original purchaser.Â* It's right there in the
warranty.

Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it
rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike
"ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing
and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a
musical training but it is there.

I hear that Ti is warm in winter and cool in summer.Â* It is stiff, yet
soft and heavy but light.Â*Â* I was riding a Ti frame, and it made the
road disappear in front of me.
https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...82-800x600.jpg

I do have musical training, and I like the fact that Ti rings with a
Tristan chord that is so satisfying and transcendent that I must stop
and change my shorts.

-- Jay Beattie.

PS.Â* I rode a Ti frame a long time ago, and it was like a noodle.Â* My
assumption is that the material has improved over the last 40 years.

Probably not. Noodle-ness has to do with the cross section of the tubes
and the modulus of elasticity of the material. All Ti alloys have very
close to the same modulus, so the material probably hasn't improved in
that respect.

What's probably improved is the choice of tubing diameters and wall
thicknesses, to better compensate for Ti's lower modulus compared to
steel's.

I would expect so, yes. The ~1980 Alan aluminum bikes, with external
tube diameters about the same as concurrent steel bikes, were reputed to
be noodles also. Not so much with the subsequent large-tube Cannondales.

Mark J.

On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 1:10:31 p.m. UTC-4, Mark J. wrote:
On 5/14/2021 8:53 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 5/14/2021 11:10 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 14, 2021 at 7:48:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
When they build carbon fiber into a configuration that will allow it
to flex and provide a reasonable ride, that is asking for trouble.
Flexing the epoxy resin will cause it eventually to fail. No brand of
bicycle is immune to this regardless that Trek tries to lend
confidence by giving a lifetime warranty. One is expected not to ask
- whose lifetime?

Uh, the lifetime of the original purchaser. It's right there in the
warranty.

Titanium is really a wonder material. I am tempted to say that it
rides as softly as a good steel bike, which it does, but steel bike
"ring" under you in that they have a natural frequency in the hearing
and feeling zones. Most people wouldn't notice this unless they had a
musical training but it is there.

I hear that Ti is warm in winter and cool in summer. It is stiff, yet
soft and heavy but light. I was riding a Ti frame, and it made the
road disappear in front of me.
https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...82-800x600.jpg

I do have musical training, and I like the fact that Ti rings with a
Tristan chord that is so satisfying and transcendent that I must stop
and change my shorts.

-- Jay Beattie.

PS. I rode a Ti frame a long time ago, and it was like a noodle. My
assumption is that the material has improved over the last 40 years.

Probably not. Noodle-ness has to do with the cross section of the tubes
and the modulus of elasticity of the material. All Ti alloys have very
close to the same modulus, so the material probably hasn't improved in
that respect.

What's probably improved is the choice of tubing diameters and wall
thicknesses, to better compensate for Ti's lower modulus compared to
steel's.
I would expect so, yes. The ~1980 Alan aluminum bikes, with external
tube diameters about the same as concurrent steel bikes, were reputed to
be noodles also. Not so much with the subsequent large-tube Cannondales.

Mark J.

A friend bought an Alan aluminium alloy frame bicycle back in the mid-1980s. He put clip-on tri-bars on it and said that when riding the tri-bars the bicycle was nearly uncontrollable due to flex.

Cheers

On 5/14/2021 9:29 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip

I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.

Carbon fiber frames are very cheap to manufacture despite their
relatively high price (which has come down significantly). Titanium is a
lot more expensive to manufacture, both for materials and labor. Most of
the mass-produced titanium frames come out of Taiwan where labor is a
lot higher cost than Mainland China.

The bottom line is that nearly everyone wants a titanium frame bicycle
but not many people are willing to spend that much money.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 4:47:13 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 5/14/2021 9:29 AM, Mark cleary wrote:

snip
I have a WIlier CF nice bike rides great. I bought a Habanero Titanium in March of 2017. Since then I might have road the Wilier 10 times and no comparison to Ti. The Ti is a silent giant. The frame makes no noise and airflow sound like CF. It has a nice stable feeling yet not dull and has exactly zero frame flex at least with me. It is a joy to ride. CF has its place but I am going Ti from now on and I always get a thread BB. No press fits for me.
Carbon fiber frames are very cheap to manufacture despite their
relatively high price (which has come down significantly). Titanium is a
lot more expensive to manufacture, both for materials and labor. Most of
the mass-produced titanium frames come out of Taiwan where labor is a
lot higher cost than Mainland China.

The bottom line is that nearly everyone wants a titanium frame bicycle
but not many people are willing to spend that much money.
Carbon Fiber Bikes are EXTREMELY labor oriented since they are cut out of 1,000's of pieces of pre-preg and then they have to be aligned on the jig exactly. The prices aren't really coming down, China which gets labor almost for free, can sell for a lot less so that is competition that the open market will not be able to stand and will fold except for the largest companies that can use sheer volume to make up for the lower profit margins.

Titanium bikes are almost labor free and you're paying for the tubing and the highly skilled welder.

May I suggest a class in economics? You're already past that stage since you're a socialist.