Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 10:59:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/12/2017 10:56 PM, John B. wrote:

As I said above, slightly less then 30% of those who served in the
military during the Vietnam era actually went to Vietnam and of those
approximately half actually served in combat.

As for coming back the same, I don't know. I ser ed in Vietnam and
knew quite a number of USAF people that served in Vietnam as well as a
few professional Army people and they didn't seem to have been
traumatized excessively.

I just missed getting drafted. The draft lottery came very, very close
to reaching my number. I'm grateful for my luck.

Technically I was drafted, or at least they sent me a letter to
report. It was a small town and the head of the draft board saw my
father and asked him where I was. My father told him I was working in
Georgia and the draft board guy told home I'd have to come home and be
drafted.

So I came home and joined the A.F. "real quick".

I have two friends who did see combat in Viet Nam. Neither wants to
talk about it, and one clearly suffered (and still suffers) pretty
significant post-traumatic stress. I think anyone who goes through that
deserves respect and sympathy.

I won't comment on PTSD other then to say that it appears to be more
prevalent in younger people, and more prevalent among inexperienced
troops.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:13:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/13/2017 3:21 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:52:20 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 11:19:37 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:43:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 7/12/2017 1:04 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
John B. wrote:

I've a friend who grew up under communism in
Hungary. He left due to personal reasons
rather then any dissatisfaction with the type
of government but he also said that anything
made in the "West", in other words the
capitalistic countries, was considered to be
far superior to anything made in the
communist countries.

I'm not suggesting communism. The kind of state
projects I'm proposing do not have the goal to
produce cutting-edge technology but to combat
unemployment, offer marginalized people an
activity where they can develop new skills and
in time a new personality, while at the same
time doing something useful for society.

It sounds like you're proposing something similar to the Civilian
Conservation Corps or the Works Progress Administration enacted by
Franklin Roosevelt during the great depression.

I'm sure there were (and are) lots of political arguments about those
programs. But I occasionally see some nice architecture - stone
bridges, public buildings, etc. - with "WPA" engraved somewhere in the
masonry. My understanding is that they gave a lot of unemployed young
men something productive to do. That alone probably helped society to
an unrecognized degree.

The CCC was a somewhat military sort of project with people living in
camps. People from 18 - 25 years (later 17 - 25) old "enlisted" for 6
month periods. They initially received $30 a month with a compulsory
allotment of $22 - $25 sent to a family dependent, as well as food,
clothing, and medical care. There was also a provisions for military
veterans to join. I believe that as many as 500,000 were employed
during some periods.

Sounds pretty good to me.

Having encountered more than my share of unmotivated and/or over-idealistic
18 year olds, I've long thought that every youth should go through something
like that.

- Frank Krygowski

Back when I was in High school a representative from Dartmouth Collage
spoke to the senior class and mentioned that the veterans from WW II
made noticeably higher grades then students that came directly from
high school. In fact he suggested that one should graduate from high
school and then "work a year" before enrolling in collage.

I think it's sound advice. Another friend told me just five days ago
about how he enrolled in college, didn't like it, dropped out to get a
factory job, and soon realized college made a lot more sense.

But I think mandatory service in either 1) the military or 2) something
along the lines of CCC would work better for most kids, assuming the
latter was properly run. Give the kids the choice of which, but make
them do one of them.

Singapore does that. All male citizens must serve for two (I believe)
years either in the military or other government service - fire
department, police, etc.

ISTM there are lots of jobs that could be accomplished by such a
workforce, jobs that are not being done now because they're too costly
even though the results would help the community. (Example: In the
1930s the CCC built trails in our local forest preserve.)

We don't currently have an education system that teaches every kid how
to work with his hands. And many kids are too dumb to figure out how to
entertain themselves without getting into various chemicals. If put to
work cutting stone, some of them might turn into sculptors. If digging
ditches, some might become civil engineers, and so on.

I don't know about civil engineers and sculpturing but in thinking
back to my teen years I can certainly think of a lot of things I'd
have done or said differently when I was 20 years old :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 10:11:45 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:59:52 AM UTC-7, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

I'm not suggesting communism. The kind of
state projects I'm proposing do not have the
goal to produce cutting-edge technology but
to combat unemployment, offer marginalized
people an activity where they can develop
new skills and in time a new personality,
while at the same time doing something
useful for society.

Wait - you're saying a gulag is
not communist?

Ha! Why all these "prison" themes? Actually I'm
not against having prisoners work as well.

I heard about a guy who destroyed a cleaning
robot and when the police came he was busy
sweeping the floor with a broom and bucket he
had brought for the occasion. After the trial
he was beaming with happiness. The journalists
asked if he had been cleared? No, on the
contrary he had been sentenced - to
hard labor

But what I talk about here is a place where
people would go of their own free will, do
a job that is a real job (not some
"rehabilitation", tho it will serve the same
purpose), and get a modest salary like
everyone else.

Do you know what "hard labor" is? Mopping a floor.

I don't know about hard labor but I did read somewhere that prisoners
in some California prisons filed a complaint about cruel and unusual
punishment..... because they didn't have color TV :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 19:08:41 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

AMuzi wrote:

"The make-work bias is best illustrated by
a story, perhaps apocryphal, of an economist
who visits China under Mao Zedong. He sees
hundreds of workers building a dam with
shovels. He asks: “Why don’t they use
a mechanical digger?” “That would put people
out of work,” replies the foreman. “Oh,” says
the economist, “I thought you were making
a dam. If it’s jobs you want, take away their
shovels and give them spoons.”

To dig a dam with spoons doesn't qualify as
creating jobs in my book - torture, rather.

Suppose you do not have a job, in fact there aren't any jobs in your
part of the world and if your garden isn't large enough you starve.

Then someone offers you a job to dig with a spoon. and that job pays
actual money so you can buy some food if the garden fails.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 19:14:14 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

John B. wrote:

The question then is, what are these Mexicans
working at if the locals can't find a job?

Probably they work outside of the system so the
employer can cut expenses for insurances,
salaries, fire at will, no unions, etc.

The point was that there are jobs.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote:

The question then is, what are these
Mexicans working at if the locals can't
find a job?

Probably they work outside of the system so
the employer can cut expenses for
insurances, salaries, fire at will, no
unions, etc.

The point was that there are jobs.

Do you actually prefer your countrymen compete
with impoverished, illiteral immigrants for
illegal, dangerous jobs that pays close to
nothing to having them in "WPA" projects
building as we have seen bridges and houses?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 03:20:23 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

jbeattie wrote:

I'm surrounded by WPA projects.

It is interesting that you guys call it WPA.
In all our books it is called the "New Deal".

The "new Deal" was a series of federal programs, public works
projects, and financial reforms and regulations enacted in the United
States during the 1930s in response to the Great Depression. These
programs included support for farmers, the unemployed, youth, and the
elderly, as well as new constraints and safeguards on the banking
industry and changes to the monetary system.

The WPA and CCC were part of the New Deal. The CCC employed maximum of
about 300,000 at it's high point and the WPA made work for about
3,000,000 people.


Another nice ride:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/12283252.jpg
Bonneville is also a big economic driver.

Wonderful
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 19:24:45 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:07:18 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
Snipped
(we should end this thread as I'm sure there will be those that
inundate the thread with "proof" that they really do need 2.4
automobiles per family, and 25 bicycles :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Well, at least 8 bicycles. One for each day of the week and then a SPecial Sunday Go To meeting bike that's only used forthat purpose.

I live in an apartment building and we are NOT allowed to hang laundry outside. I told the property manager that if they are serious about saving energy that they should put up clotheslines from each apartment and allow tenents to air-dry their laundry outside. I got laughed at by her.

In Singapore apartments - the Housing Development Board apartments -
all have "clothes poles" see
http://tinyurl.com/ybr2wh7v

Apartment blocks:
http://tinyurl.com/y7utjz9f
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 06:31:16 +0200, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

John B. wrote:

The question then is, what are these
Mexicans working at if the locals can't
find a job?

Probably they work outside of the system so
the employer can cut expenses for
insurances, salaries, fire at will, no
unions, etc.

The point was that there are jobs.

Do you actually prefer your countrymen compete
with impoverished, illiteral immigrants for
illegal, dangerous jobs that pays close to
nothing to having them in "WPA" projects
building as we have seen bridges and houses?

Why ever not? But of course they never will.

As for "illegal, dangerous jobs", is picking lettuce a dangerious job?
Or mowing a lawn? If an illegal works at any trade there are
government regulations that must be obeyed. If the regulations call
for safety helmets then you have to fit them out with helmets. Telling
the inspector, "Oh! Those are just Mexicans" just doesn't work.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 7/13/2017 9:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:19:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/13/2017 3:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:39:15 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


One thing that seems to be overlooked in most of the "socialist"
arguments is that the nation with perhaps the most aggressive and
least encumbered capitalistic system in the world enjoys the highest
standard of living in the world.

Really?

"CIA World Factbook ranks every country in the world using GDP per capita. The
highest standard of living is Qatar ($145,000) and the lowest is Somalia ($400).
The United States is #19 ($56,300)."


Frank, as I am sure that you know GDP per capita is the gross income
of the country divided by the number of citizens.
There are about 2.6 million inhabitants in Qatar, of which some
330,000 are actually citizens of the country and conditions for non
citizens in Qatar are pathetic. I believe that it is still the law
that foreign workers cannot even change their jobs without being
released by their current employer.

So, yes. In a total population of about 2.6 million approximately
330,000 do have a rather wonderful life and about 2.2% of them are
worth a million dollars or more. But what about the other 88%?



I don't know much about Qatar, but I assumed their super-high GDP was due to
the fact that their country is floating on oil.

Oil and gas. The 3rd largest gas reserves in the world.


If you use a different definition of "standard of living" other countries seem
to come up first.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ne...rogress-index/

- Frank Krygowski

True. I was actually thinking about the mandatory automatic dish
washer, the multiple large screen TV's, the approximately 2.4 cars per
family, the automatic clothes washer and the electric drier, the
average credit card debt of $14,000. All, according to what I read on
the Net are minimum necessities to support life in the U.S.

The U.S. poverty level is $25,000 a year. Think of that a poor family
in the U.S. has five times the income of the average family in
Thailand.

Average U.S. house size is about 2,200 sq. feet and the average price
seems to be in the neighborhood of $265,000.

But you are not happy?

:-) Actually, I'm (usually) quite happy. But interestingly, in your
long list above, we own only the automatic clothes washer. (OK, we have
a dryer, but it burns gas, not electricity.) We have one small TV, only
one small car since last year, no auto dish washer, no credit card debt,
a much smaller house, etc. etc.

I think American culture's biggest mistake is thinking that having
expensive **** makes you happy.

As I've said, I have no personal knowledge of the U.S., post 1972, and
all my "knowledge" comes from reading news accounts and what I see on
the Web.

But I read posts (on other sites) about "my dishwasher stinks" and a
week or more of posts regaling one on how to remove the "stink" from
one's dishwasher. It appeared to me that everyone on that site had an
automatic dish washer and considered it a necessity.

I posted something derogatory here about families with two cars, or
maybe it was "why can't Johnny walk to school", and again 100%
arguments that multiple cars were a necessity.

I read that the *average* Usian family has $14,000 in credit card
debt.

I read, on another site, about a guy that had discovered sunshine
would dry clothes and now only partially dried his washing in the
Dryer and then laid them out in the "back yard" on lawn chairs. The
responses all seemed to say that was too much bother and just dry them
in the dryer.

I read that currently Teen Age girls in the U.S. regard shopping a
form of entertainment. "Malling one site called it.

In short, I am amazed at how effete the U.S. has become in the nearly
50 years since I left.

Given the success of Walmart and Harbor Freight has had selling "cheap
****" I would suggest that the American dream isn't "having expensive
**** makes you happy", but that simply "having a lot of cheap ****
makes one happy" :-)

(we should end this thread as I'm sure there will be those that
inundate the thread with "proof" that they really do need 2.4
automobiles per family, and 25 bicycles :-)


You underestimate it!

There are entire industries for off-site storage of the crap
you don't need once the basement and garage are filled and
then other guys who get paid to clear out those spaces.

But that opens other opportunities too. I haven't bought any
new clothing in over twenty years as thrift stores are
chock-full of US-made leather dress shoes, worn once, for
$10 and real cotton collared shirts, again worn once, under
$5, etc. Garments below XXXL sizes languish in these stores
and are priced accordingly.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971