Hamburg G20 summit protests and bicycles

On 7/14/2017 12:20 PM, Doug Landau wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:10:04 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 8:13:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/13/2017 3:21 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:52:20 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 11:19:37 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:43:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 7/12/2017 1:04 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
John B. wrote:

I've a friend who grew up under communism in
Hungary. He left due to personal reasons
rather then any dissatisfaction with the type
of government but he also said that anything
made in the "West", in other words the
capitalistic countries, was considered to be
far superior to anything made in the
communist countries.

I'm not suggesting communism. The kind of state
projects I'm proposing do not have the goal to
produce cutting-edge technology but to combat
unemployment, offer marginalized people an
activity where they can develop new skills and
in time a new personality, while at the same
time doing something useful for society.

It sounds like you're proposing something similar to the Civilian
Conservation Corps or the Works Progress Administration enacted by
Franklin Roosevelt during the great depression.

I'm sure there were (and are) lots of political arguments about those
programs. But I occasionally see some nice architecture - stone
bridges, public buildings, etc. - with "WPA" engraved somewhere in the
masonry. My understanding is that they gave a lot of unemployed young
men something productive to do. That alone probably helped society to
an unrecognized degree.

The CCC was a somewhat military sort of project with people living in
camps. People from 18 - 25 years (later 17 - 25) old "enlisted" for 6
month periods. They initially received $30 a month with a compulsory
allotment of $22 - $25 sent to a family dependent, as well as food,
clothing, and medical care. There was also a provisions for military
veterans to join. I believe that as many as 500,000 were employed
during some periods.

Sounds pretty good to me.

Having encountered more than my share of unmotivated and/or over-idealistic
18 year olds, I've long thought that every youth should go through something
like that.

- Frank Krygowski

Back when I was in High school a representative from Dartmouth Collage
spoke to the senior class and mentioned that the veterans from WW II
made noticeably higher grades then students that came directly from
high school. In fact he suggested that one should graduate from high
school and then "work a year" before enrolling in collage.

I think it's sound advice. Another friend told me just five days ago
about how he enrolled in college, didn't like it, dropped out to get a
factory job, and soon realized college made a lot more sense.

But I think mandatory service in either 1) the military or 2) something
along the lines of CCC would work better for most kids, assuming the
latter was properly run. Give the kids the choice of which, but make
them do one of them.

ISTM there are lots of jobs that could be accomplished by such a
workforce, jobs that are not being done now because they're too costly
even though the results would help the community. (Example: In the
1930s the CCC built trails in our local forest preserve.)

We don't currently have an education system that teaches every kid how
to work with his hands. And many kids are too dumb to figure out how to
entertain themselves without getting into various chemicals. If put to
work cutting stone, some of them might turn into sculptors. If digging
ditches, some might become civil engineers, and so on.

Did you know that Jimi Hendrix was an Airborne Army? Apparently he didn't use drugs or drink to excess and died from a medical problem.

Ambiguous. Should that be expressed as "Apparently he didn't (use drugs or drink to excess)" or "Apparently he didn't use drugs or (drink to excess)" ?




Read this one page and decide for yourself:
autopsyfiles.org/reports/deathcert/hendrix, jimi_dc.pdf


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

John B. wrote:

The "new Deal" was a series of federal
programs, public works projects, and
financial reforms and regulations enacted in
the United States during the 1930s in
response to the Great Depression.
These programs included support for farmers,
the unemployed, youth, and the elderly, as
well as new constraints and safeguards on the
banking industry and changes to the
monetary system.

The WPA and CCC were part of the New Deal.
The CCC employed maximum of about 300,000 at
it's high point and the WPA made work for
about 3,000,000 people.

Simply outstanding! I'm a "New Dealer" from
this day on Perhaps I should pick up a book
for some stats and photos...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 09:28:00 +0700, John B.
wrote:
Back in the days or the student protests against the Vietnam war I
read a survey of the students that joined the protests and
overwhelmingly it was the students taking the courses in the less
difficult subjects, basket weaving, etc., that were protesting.
Students in the engineering, medical, legal and sciences course were
noticeably absence. Whether this was due to higher intelligence or
more study time required was not mentioned.

Yep.

When I was at San Fernando Valley State College in 1966(?), there were
1200 engineering students. Of these about 5 were involved in some
form of student activism. We received the dubious honor of having the
administration send a note to our various instructors suggesting that
they give us the lower grade if any of use were on the borderline, as
the skool wanted to get rid of us.

When I migrated to Cal Poly Pomona in 1967, it was much of the same. I
don't recall the total engineering skool population, but I'll
guess(tm) about 2500 at the time, with maybe 10 actively involved in
protesting the Vietnam war. Cal Poly was mostly an agricultural skool
at the time. Most of the students were very conservative and pro-war.

However, things changed overnight when the draft lottery started in
1969. Suddenly, everyone who lacked a functional reason or deferment
was actively protesting the Vietnam war. Here's me at the time trying
to look serious.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/slides/jeffl-04.html
I helped operate the draft counseling center and ran the student
government print shop. We went from begging for help to being swamped
with students looking for a way to avoid getting drafted into the
military. I would guess(tm) that about 60% of the engineering
students became overnight radical protesters.

I'm not sure what to say about the intelligence part. At the time Cal
Poly Pomona has a tiny liberal arts curriculum and tended to emphasize
the more practical curricula. As I recall, there was little concern
for homework or part time jobs when there was an impending danger of
getting drafting. Since the liberal arts majors had difficulties
getting a deferment, I would expect them to be a bit more desperate
than the engineering students.

As I remember it, after the Kent State tragedy when the militia
actually fired on the mob, protests seemed to become less spectacular,
which may be a comment on the dedication of the average "protester".

Yep. May 4, 1970. However, it wasn't totally due to a fear of
getting accidentally shot by the state militia. Much of the decrease
in protest marches, riots, and demonstrations was due to the
authorities refusing to grant parade and meeting permits because they
were afraid of a either a repetition of Kent State, or of retaliation
by the anti-war groups. Neither reason proved valid, but was
sufficient to put a damper on activities for quite a while. The draft
finally ended on Jan 27, 1973 to the relief of all involved.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
There are something like 80,000 UNPOWERED dams in the US that are presently in the process of being powered.

http://www.hydro.org/policy/waterpower/powering-existing-dams/
"Only 3 percent of the nation’s 80,000 dams currently generate
electricity,.."

"US hydropower: the potential for converting non-powered dams"
http://www.power-technology.com/features/featureus-hydropower-the-potential-for-converting-non-powered-dams-4989938/

I couldn't find a good number for the number of projects in progress.
It's certainly not all 80,000 dams, but it's also not zero. Judging
by what Google excavated, I would guess(tm) about 20 active projects
and maybe up to 200 at some point in the planning and approval
process.

There is NO dams being removed to my knowledge. And dams that are here are in almost continuous upgrade.

"72 Dams Removed to Restore Rivers in 2016"
https://s3.amazonaws.com/american-rivers-website/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/15104536/DamsRemoved_1999-2016.pdf
(124 pages)
"Nationwide, 1384 dams have been removed from 1912 through 2016."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dam_removal

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:13:30 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 7/13/2017 9:07 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:19:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/13/2017 3:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:39:15 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


One thing that seems to be overlooked in most of the "socialist"
arguments is that the nation with perhaps the most aggressive and
least encumbered capitalistic system in the world enjoys the highest
standard of living in the world.

Really?

"CIA World Factbook ranks every country in the world using GDP per capita. The
highest standard of living is Qatar ($145,000) and the lowest is Somalia ($400).
The United States is #19 ($56,300)."


Frank, as I am sure that you know GDP per capita is the gross income
of the country divided by the number of citizens.
There are about 2.6 million inhabitants in Qatar, of which some
330,000 are actually citizens of the country and conditions for non
citizens in Qatar are pathetic. I believe that it is still the law
that foreign workers cannot even change their jobs without being
released by their current employer.

So, yes. In a total population of about 2.6 million approximately
330,000 do have a rather wonderful life and about 2.2% of them are
worth a million dollars or more. But what about the other 88%?



I don't know much about Qatar, but I assumed their super-high GDP was due to
the fact that their country is floating on oil.

Oil and gas. The 3rd largest gas reserves in the world.


If you use a different definition of "standard of living" other countries seem
to come up first.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ne...rogress-index/

- Frank Krygowski

True. I was actually thinking about the mandatory automatic dish
washer, the multiple large screen TV's, the approximately 2.4 cars per
family, the automatic clothes washer and the electric drier, the
average credit card debt of $14,000. All, according to what I read on
the Net are minimum necessities to support life in the U.S.

The U.S. poverty level is $25,000 a year. Think of that a poor family
in the U.S. has five times the income of the average family in
Thailand.

Average U.S. house size is about 2,200 sq. feet and the average price
seems to be in the neighborhood of $265,000.

But you are not happy?

:-) Actually, I'm (usually) quite happy. But interestingly, in your
long list above, we own only the automatic clothes washer. (OK, we have
a dryer, but it burns gas, not electricity.) We have one small TV, only
one small car since last year, no auto dish washer, no credit card debt,
a much smaller house, etc. etc.

I think American culture's biggest mistake is thinking that having
expensive **** makes you happy.

As I've said, I have no personal knowledge of the U.S., post 1972, and
all my "knowledge" comes from reading news accounts and what I see on
the Web.

But I read posts (on other sites) about "my dishwasher stinks" and a
week or more of posts regaling one on how to remove the "stink" from
one's dishwasher. It appeared to me that everyone on that site had an
automatic dish washer and considered it a necessity.

I posted something derogatory here about families with two cars, or
maybe it was "why can't Johnny walk to school", and again 100%
arguments that multiple cars were a necessity.

I read that the *average* Usian family has $14,000 in credit card
debt.

I read, on another site, about a guy that had discovered sunshine
would dry clothes and now only partially dried his washing in the
Dryer and then laid them out in the "back yard" on lawn chairs. The
responses all seemed to say that was too much bother and just dry them
in the dryer.

I read that currently Teen Age girls in the U.S. regard shopping a
form of entertainment. "Malling one site called it.

In short, I am amazed at how effete the U.S. has become in the nearly
50 years since I left.

Given the success of Walmart and Harbor Freight has had selling "cheap
****" I would suggest that the American dream isn't "having expensive
**** makes you happy", but that simply "having a lot of cheap ****
makes one happy" :-)

(we should end this thread as I'm sure there will be those that
inundate the thread with "proof" that they really do need 2.4
automobiles per family, and 25 bicycles :-)


You underestimate it!

There are entire industries for off-site storage of the crap
you don't need once the basement and garage are filled and
then other guys who get paid to clear out those spaces.


Yes. In fact at my house we collect women's clothes. My wife and my
grand daughter both have clothes hanging on the rack that they
couldn't get into with a axe. I say, "if you can't wear it any more
give it away" and they reply, "No, it might come in useful someday".

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 7:02:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/14/2017 8:56 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:08:46 AM UTC-7, Emanuel Berg wrote:
AMuzi wrote:

"The make-work bias is best illustrated by
a story, perhaps apocryphal, of an economist
who visits China under Mao Zedong. He sees
hundreds of workers building a dam with
shovels. He asks: “Why don’t they use
a mechanical digger?†“That would put people
out of work,†replies the foreman. “Oh,†says
the economist, “I thought you were making
a dam. If it’s jobs you want, take away their
shovels and give them spoons.â€

To dig a dam with spoons doesn't qualify as
creating jobs in my book - torture, rather.

But shovels - why not? Depending on the
situation, sometimes you can use a mechanical
digger, sometimes shovels.

It is not about having a dam OR jobs. One could
have both at the same time.

For the things I suggest perhaps ditches
instead of a dam would suffice...

Have you ever been around a hydro-power dam? Shovels indeed!


That ship has sailed. They're being removed faster than dams
are built. We have less hydroelectric capacity now than in 1930.

I don't know where you get that idea. There are something like 80,000 UNPOWERED dams in the US that are presently in the process of being powered.

The major dams like Hoover and Grand Coulee have been in almost continuous upgrades.

What's more the power stations at the big dams also are "power storage" facilities in which sources such as coal that need to run "full blast" all the time pump water into the reservoir behind the dam as a sort of power storage system.

There is NO dams being removed to my knowledge. And dams that are here are in almost continuous upgrade.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USHydroPower.jpg

In 1949 hydroelectric accounted for 30%+ of electricity generated and
today it is about 6%.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:00:28 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:07:18 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:19:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/13/2017 3:04 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 9:39:15 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:


One thing that seems to be overlooked in most of the "socialist"
arguments is that the nation with perhaps the most aggressive and
least encumbered capitalistic system in the world enjoys the highest
standard of living in the world.

Really?

"CIA World Factbook ranks every country in the world using GDP per capita. The
highest standard of living is Qatar ($145,000) and the lowest is Somalia ($400).
The United States is #19 ($56,300)."


Frank, as I am sure that you know GDP per capita is the gross income
of the country divided by the number of citizens.
There are about 2.6 million inhabitants in Qatar, of which some
330,000 are actually citizens of the country and conditions for non
citizens in Qatar are pathetic. I believe that it is still the law
that foreign workers cannot even change their jobs without being
released by their current employer.

So, yes. In a total population of about 2.6 million approximately
330,000 do have a rather wonderful life and about 2.2% of them are
worth a million dollars or more. But what about the other 88%?



I don't know much about Qatar, but I assumed their super-high GDP was due to
the fact that their country is floating on oil.

Oil and gas. The 3rd largest gas reserves in the world.


If you use a different definition of "standard of living" other countries seem
to come up first.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ne...rogress-index/

- Frank Krygowski

True. I was actually thinking about the mandatory automatic dish
washer, the multiple large screen TV's, the approximately 2.4 cars per
family, the automatic clothes washer and the electric drier, the
average credit card debt of $14,000. All, according to what I read on
the Net are minimum necessities to support life in the U.S.

The U.S. poverty level is $25,000 a year. Think of that a poor family
in the U.S. has five times the income of the average family in
Thailand.

Average U.S. house size is about 2,200 sq. feet and the average price
seems to be in the neighborhood of $265,000.

But you are not happy?

:-) Actually, I'm (usually) quite happy. But interestingly, in your
long list above, we own only the automatic clothes washer. (OK, we have
a dryer, but it burns gas, not electricity.) We have one small TV, only
one small car since last year, no auto dish washer, no credit card debt,
a much smaller house, etc. etc.

I think American culture's biggest mistake is thinking that having
expensive **** makes you happy.

As I've said, I have no personal knowledge of the U.S., post 1972, and
all my "knowledge" comes from reading news accounts and what I see on
the Web.

But I read posts (on other sites) about "my dishwasher stinks" and a
week or more of posts regaling one on how to remove the "stink" from
one's dishwasher. It appeared to me that everyone on that site had an
automatic dish washer and considered it a necessity.

I posted something derogatory here about families with two cars, or
maybe it was "why can't Johnny walk to school", and again 100%
arguments that multiple cars were a necessity.

I read that the *average* Usian family has $14,000 in credit card
debt.

I read, on another site, about a guy that had discovered sunshine
would dry clothes and now only partially dried his washing in the
Dryer and then laid them out in the "back yard" on lawn chairs. The
responses all seemed to say that was too much bother and just dry them
in the dryer.

I read that currently Teen Age girls in the U.S. regard shopping a
form of entertainment. "Malling one site called it.

In short, I am amazed at how effete the U.S. has become in the nearly
50 years since I left.

Given the success of Walmart and Harbor Freight has had selling "cheap
****" I would suggest that the American dream isn't "having expensive
**** makes you happy", but that simply "having a lot of cheap ****
makes one happy" :-)

(we should end this thread as I'm sure there will be those that
inundate the thread with "proof" that they really do need 2.4
automobiles per family, and 25 bicycles :-)

I just got a spam that said the average credit card debt was $20,000.

I believe that in the U.S. that will be called "progress" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 10:10:28 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/14/2017 9:13 AM, AMuzi wrote:
I haven't bought any new
clothing in over twenty years as thrift stores are chock-full of US-made
leather dress shoes, worn once, for $10 and real cotton collared shirts,
again worn once, under $5, etc. Garments below XXXL sizes languish in
these stores and are priced accordingly.

Do they have any wool shirts? I love wool. (Not that anyone will be
surprised.)

My father was much the same. Big heavy wool pants that were so heavy
they needed suspenders to wear. Nice red plaid hunting jacket.

One Christmas I gave him a pair of down insulated underwear and the
next time I was home my mother says something like, "don't give your
father any more underwear, the ones you gave him almost killed him".

Apparently my father got all togged out with his usual wool and wore
the new underwear that his oldest son had given him for Christmas and
went out to cut up stove wood. By lunch time, my mother said, he was
soaked with sweat and had to come in, take a shower and lay down and
rest a while :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 10:47:54 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/13/2017 11:35 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:13:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/13/2017 3:21 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:52:20 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Wednesday, July 12, 2017 at 11:19:37 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:43:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 7/12/2017 1:04 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
John B. wrote:

I've a friend who grew up under communism in
Hungary. He left due to personal reasons
rather then any dissatisfaction with the type
of government but he also said that anything
made in the "West", in other words the
capitalistic countries, was considered to be
far superior to anything made in the
communist countries.

I'm not suggesting communism. The kind of state
projects I'm proposing do not have the goal to
produce cutting-edge technology but to combat
unemployment, offer marginalized people an
activity where they can develop new skills and
in time a new personality, while at the same
time doing something useful for society.

It sounds like you're proposing something similar to the Civilian
Conservation Corps or the Works Progress Administration enacted by
Franklin Roosevelt during the great depression.

I'm sure there were (and are) lots of political arguments about those
programs. But I occasionally see some nice architecture - stone
bridges, public buildings, etc. - with "WPA" engraved somewhere in the
masonry. My understanding is that they gave a lot of unemployed young
men something productive to do. That alone probably helped society to
an unrecognized degree.

The CCC was a somewhat military sort of project with people living in
camps. People from 18 - 25 years (later 17 - 25) old "enlisted" for 6
month periods. They initially received $30 a month with a compulsory
allotment of $22 - $25 sent to a family dependent, as well as food,
clothing, and medical care. There was also a provisions for military
veterans to join. I believe that as many as 500,000 were employed
during some periods.

Sounds pretty good to me.

Having encountered more than my share of unmotivated and/or over-idealistic
18 year olds, I've long thought that every youth should go through something
like that.

- Frank Krygowski

Back when I was in High school a representative from Dartmouth Collage
spoke to the senior class and mentioned that the veterans from WW II
made noticeably higher grades then students that came directly from
high school. In fact he suggested that one should graduate from high
school and then "work a year" before enrolling in collage.

I think it's sound advice. Another friend told me just five days ago
about how he enrolled in college, didn't like it, dropped out to get a
factory job, and soon realized college made a lot more sense.

But I think mandatory service in either 1) the military or 2) something
along the lines of CCC would work better for most kids, assuming the
latter was properly run. Give the kids the choice of which, but make
them do one of them.

Singapore does that. All male citizens must serve for two (I believe)
years either in the military or other government service - fire
department, police, etc.

ISTM there are lots of jobs that could be accomplished by such a
workforce, jobs that are not being done now because they're too costly
even though the results would help the community. (Example: In the
1930s the CCC built trails in our local forest preserve.)

We don't currently have an education system that teaches every kid how
to work with his hands. And many kids are too dumb to figure out how to
entertain themselves without getting into various chemicals. If put to
work cutting stone, some of them might turn into sculptors. If digging
ditches, some might become civil engineers, and so on.

I don't know about civil engineers and sculpturing but in thinking
back to my teen years I can certainly think of a lot of things I'd
have done or said differently when I was 20 years old :-)

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand
to have the old man around. But when I got to 21 I was astonished at how
much the old man had learned in seven years.” (Mark Twain)

There is considerable truth in that.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 15 Jul 2017 08:08:28 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Yes. In fact at my house we collect women's clothes. My wife and my
grand daughter both have clothes hanging on the rack that they
couldn't get into with a axe. I say, "if you can't wear it any more
give it away" and they reply, "No, it might come in useful someday".

I don't see a problem:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/shoes.html
Actually, I found an additional 10 pairs of shoes later. Most have
been mercifully recycled or donated. The problem was that just before
I would wear out a pair of shoes, I would buy a replacement and store
the old shoes which "might come in useful someday". My guess is
that's about 40+ years worth. I've been in the process of slowly
cleaning out the house and office from such clutter. I spent my first
50 years accumulating the junk. I'm going to spend my next 50 years
selling, recycling, or tossing the accumulated junk.

I'm down to 3 bicycles suitable for riding,
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/5bikes.html
and enough parts to make about 5 more bicycles should find the time
and room to store them.

Just one problem. I donated a box of bicycle parts and tools to the
local bicycle charity:
http://bikechurch.santacruzhub.org
Within a few days, I found myself ordering parts and tools online to
replace the one's I donated. Oops.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558