#11
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Chain Lube?
On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 02:31:19 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote: John B. slocomb wrote: On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 16:25:35 -0800, Joerg wrote: On 2018-11-12 16:17, Ralph Barone wrote: John B. slocomb wrote: I wonder whether this product might not be a useful chain lube https://tinyurl.com/yc8dwzfp cheers, John B. It looks pricey, but molybdenum disulphide is a great, albeit messy dry lubricant. Yes, that looks like it could become the most expensive chain lube ever. Do they have real gold flakes in there? I can't imagine a can lasting more than 4-5 lubes. You could buy a new chain instead where the factory lube lasts like 2-3 normal lube intervals. Good Lord! A cyclist worrying about prices? Impossible! After all a TREK Madone SLR 9 Disc eTap starts at a mere $12,299,99.... But of course, that's a road bike and everyone knows that those who actually ride a bicycle on a public road are... well, a bit on the stupid side. Imagine, ignoring all those dangerous automobiles... In contrast, the mountain bikers, a sport that originated with a bunch of guys who rode old second, third, fourth hand, bikes that even the riders referred to as "Klunkers", can now rejoice in a brand new TREK Top Fuel 9.9 SL, for a paltry $9,299.99. And you want to ignore an almost magical product that markets for a mere $44.77 (plus shipping) ? cheers, John B. Just buy your moly powder in bulk and mix it in with the carrier of your choice (oil, wax, a fast evaporating solvent, or a mixture of the above) https://www.lowerfriction.com/produc...?categoryID=26 It doesn't seem to be quite as simple as the Dow stuff apparently goes on as a liquid and then hardens. According to the TDS it requires a two hour curing time which seems to imply something other then just Molybdenum Disulfide and a carrier. The Dow product contains Polybutyl Titanate which, from what I read, aids in forming an adhesive coating probably helps in causing the Moly to stick to the object being coated. cheers, John B. |
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#12
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Chain Lube?
On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:28:47 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 06:52:19 +0700, John B. slocomb wrote: I wonder whether this product might not be a useful chain lube https://tinyurl.com/yc8dwzfp By now, you should have gotten my clue that it helps to know the ingredients and what they do. https://webaps.ellsworth.com/edl/Actions/GetLibraryFile.aspx?document=23592&language=en Chemical name CAS-No. Concentration (% w/w) Butane 106-97-8 = 49 - = 67 n-Butyl acetate 123-86-4 = 8 - = 12 Propane 74-98-6 = 8 - = 12 Naphtha (petroleum), hydrodesulfurized heavy 64742-82-1 = 7 - = 11 Molybdenum sulfide 1317-33-5 = 5 - = 7 Polybutyl titanate 9022-96-2 = 3 - = 4 Graphite 7782-42-5 = 1.4 - = 1.8 Ethylbenzene 100-41-4 = 0.12 - = 0.16 The butane and propane are propellants and don't do anything for lubrication. n-Butyl acetate is another name for acetic acid. My guess(tm) is that it's used to mask the yucky smell. Most of the contents is naphtha, which is an oily lubricant found various forms in most lubricants. Others in the family are mineral oil, stoddards solvent, kerosene, camp stove oil, petroleum distillate, etc. These are not identical, but quite similar. Molybdenum (di)sulfide is a friction reducer and the main lubricating ingredient in the mix. https://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/molybdenum_disulfide_characteristics.htm Poly butyl titanate (PBT), also known as titanium tetrabutanolate, seems to be a lubricant that will coat the metal parts with a thin (possibly nanoparticle) but hard layer of titanium dioxide. It's a common friction reducing additive to lubricants. https://res.mdpi.com/lubricants/lubricants-04-00012/article_deploy/lubricants-04-00012.pdf?filename=&attachment=1 Graphite is yet another friction reducer. The tiny amount of ethylbenzene seems to be to prevent the naphtha from turning to tar. So, there's you have my best guess as to how this stuff works. The problem is that there's nothing listed that would help the lubricant enter the pin and sleeve area of the chain through capillary action. If the chain were perfectly clean, I could possibly see it entering the pin and sleeve, but any old oil, dirt, or wax, will block entry to the only place where the various friction reducers can work. It might work if you immersed the chain in a hot solution of this lube, but in a spray can, that's not going to happen. Spraying the oil on the surface of the chain isn't going to do anything for lubrication besides attract dirt. If one is lubricating a clean chain - I say that as I've seen chains so dirty that you'd have needed a shovel to clean them - I'm fairly sure that the mix of naphtha and the actual lubricants will enter the pin and roller area. At least, another lubricant that I used for a number of years - a mix of petroleum lubricants and a light carrier which evaporated leaving a greasy residue - did. Unless, that is, one could run an unlubricated chain for several years. :-) cheers, John B. |
#13
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Chain Lube?
On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:32:50 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 21:28:47 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote: The tiny amount of ethylbenzene seems to be to prevent the naphtha from turning to tar. Ok, that's wrong. The ethylbenzene is probably a contaminant left over from the distillation of the naphtha. Possibly. "Naphtha" is not a really specific term (other then it is a hydrocarbon :-) but the specs read heavy naphtha which usually has a boiling point of 90 - 200 degrees (C) and ethylbenzine has a boiling point of 130 degrees (C). cheers, John B. |
#14
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Chain Lube?
On 11/12/2018 5:52 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
I wonder whether this product might not be a useful chain lube https://tinyurl.com/yc8dwzfp As Jobst often noted, any liquid or semi-liquid, even water, is a lubricant. Suitability and performance of course varies. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#15
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Chain Lube?
On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 14:11:38 +0700, John B. slocomb
wrote: If one is lubricating a clean chain "Clean Chain" is an oxymoron. - I say that as I've seen chains so dirty that you'd have needed a shovel to clean them - I'm fairly sure that the mix of naphtha and the actual lubricants will enter the pin and roller area. Not in the quantities usually applied to a chain. That's why industrial chains, such as on conveyor belts have brush oilers: https://www.zoro.com/lubesite-chain-oiler-flat-brush-8-oz-fb-8/i/G1530903/ I probably would try one on my bicycle except that it's difficult to contrive a mounting arrangement that follows the chain line as I shift through the gears. I do have a paper design for a derailleur with a built in lubricator, but it's not practical. It sticks out even further than the derailleur and will probably be damaged if it hits something. Maybe something like this: https://felixwong.com/2014/09/z-chain-oiler-review/ Also, I wanted to try more than one brush oiler so that I can wash, rinse, dry, and lube as I ride using some kind of shifting mechanism to switch from solvents to the appropriate oil for riding conditions. At least, another lubricant that I used for a number of years - a mix of petroleum lubricants and a light carrier which evaporated leaving a greasy residue - did. Unless, that is, one could run an unlubricated chain for several years. :-) If the chain is sloppy and loose, oil smeared on the chain will eventually arrive to the pin and sleeve. However, I doubt if grease will do that. If the solvent carrier evaporates before the oil has time to work its way into the mechanism, it will be too thick to move and remain on the surface. What I would like to try is a chain where the pin or sleeve have a spiral groove cut along its length to "pump" oil through the bearing. Just keep adding oil to lubricate. When it's time to clean the chain, just remove the chain, reverse the direction of rotation, and the accumulated grease and crud will be pushed out the direction it arrived. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#16
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Chain Lube?
On 11/12/2018 4:17 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. slocomb wrote: I wonder whether this product might not be a useful chain lube https://tinyurl.com/yc8dwzfp cheers, John B. It looks pricey, but molybdenum disulphide is a great, albeit messy dry lubricant. About 45 years ago I tried molybdenum disulfide on my bicycle chain. It didn't work well. The aerosol nozzle kept clogging, and it was messy. The particles are small enough that you don't have the same problem that you do with wax. But I'm not sure that it was actually getting into the pins and rollers. You really need a lubricant that has a carrier that makes it thin enough to penetrate and then the carrier evaporates leaving the lubricant inside. In short, you want a foaming chain lube for non-O ring chains. These are designed specifically for the unique characteristics of chains. There aren't many non-O ring motorcycle chains anymore so you probably have to order it. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y |
#17
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Chain Lube?
On 11/12/2018 6:31 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
snip Just buy your moly powder in bulk and mix it in with the carrier of your choice (oil, wax, a fast evaporating solvent, or a mixture of the above) https://www.lowerfriction.com/produc...?categoryID=26 Yes, that would work. But most people want a product, not a project. |
#18
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Chain Lube?
On 13/11/2018 1:39 PM, sms wrote:
On 11/12/2018 6:31 PM, Ralph Barone wrote: snip Just buy your moly powder in bulk and mix it in with the carrier of your choice (oil, wax, a fast evaporating solvent, or a mixture of the above) https://www.lowerfriction.com/produc...?categoryID=26 Yes, that would work. But most people want a product, not a project. Yeah, I'd rather spend my free time riding my bike. What does this do for you anyway that over the counter Finish Line or similar would do? |
#19
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Chain Lube?
On Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 1:38:08 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
About 45 years ago I tried molybdenum disulfide on my bicycle chain. It didn't work well. The aerosol nozzle kept clogging, and it was messy. The particles are small enough that you don't have the same problem that you do with wax. Hmm. The "problem" people really have with wax is that it produces longer chain life and less friction loss than any other known lubricant. It's also far cleaner, keeping one's bike, leg, pants etc. clean. In other words, those are not problems, they are great benefits. The only real problem is that the lubrication process takes a little longer (maybe ten minutes if done on the bike, as opposed to a hot dip method). "sms" is probably referring to his theoretical idea that the wax doesn't penetrate and lubricate as well. But lab tests as well as tons of anecdotal evidence show that his ideas are flat out wrong. Again. - Frank Krygowski |
#20
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Chain Lube?
On 13/11/2018 2:38 PM, Duane wrote:
On 13/11/2018 1:39 PM, sms wrote: On 11/12/2018 6:31 PM, Ralph Barone wrote: snip Just buy your moly powder in bulk and mix it in with the carrier of your choice (oil, wax, a fast evaporating solvent, or a mixture of the above) https://www.lowerfriction.com/produc...?categoryID=26 Yes, that would work. But most people want a product, not a project. Yeah, I'd rather spend my free time riding my bike. What does this do for you anyway that over the counter Finish Line or similar would do? similar wouldn't do? |
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