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Chain alignment friction losses



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 14th 19, 04:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 10:02:05 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.


My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf


I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


Holy ****, I'm not cycling with you. Never mind the 350W: I can do that briefly, but 250W continuous... the very attempt would kill most men my age that I know. I'd probably survive, because I'm a lifelong endurance athlete, but my therapists and my cardio would dump on me from a dizzy height because they don't want me to exceed 80 per cent of max heart rate more than momentarily.

AJ
I'm faster than anybody, downhill that is
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  #12  
Old June 14th 19, 05:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 9,452
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 9:58:14 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, June 12, 2019 at 9:24:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/12/2019 1:51 AM, John B. wrote:

Some time ago I posted a question about the possible friction losses
when various "gears" are used. Subsequently I have come across a test
of both chain misalignment and sprocket size friction losses.

The test was done with 53-39 front chain rings and a
11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-28 cassette. The lowest losses were with the
39/17 combination and the highest with the 53/11. Losses with the
53/11 combination were 3.467 times higher than with the 39/17.
The graph states that it is based on the "optimal shift sequence using
the ring-cog combinations with the lowest frictional losses yet
maintaining an acceptable range of final gear ratios."
https://www.ceramicspeed.com/en/cycl...g-size-report/

The second part of the test shows the friction losses with the chain
aligned and using the various ratios of the cassette and chain rings
above.
The lowest losses were with the 53 tooth chain ring and the highest
with the 39 tooth chain ring in all "gears". In other words the 53/ 11
ratio had ~8.2 watts losses while the 39/11 ration had ~8.5 watts. The
53/28 had ~5.6 watts losses and the 39/28 had ~6.2.


So the test was run with an input power of 250 Watts. Typical losses
were about 7.0 to 7.5 Watts. That gives a typical efficiency of 97%, and
that applies to almost all the various chainring and sprocket
combinations. The 53-11 combination drops the efficiency down to 96.6%,
still not too shabby. It's only the weird combinations like 39-11 that
lose significantly more, and even that comes in at 96% efficient.

The important point, though, is that there doesn't seem to be a more
efficient system. Yes, the efficiency would drop if the chain was
extremely grungy and (I assume) worn. But that's easily fixed.


--
- Frank Krygowski


Why would we even bother to discuss an item such as a chain drive when the total loses at worse case is less than 5%? Andre believes that those multispeed hubs are "more efficient". I would actually have to see the figures on it because heavy grease or an oil bath actually absorbs more energy to move it out the way.

Do I suppose I would agree that in inclement weather the efficiency of the multispeed hub is better the difference is so slight as to be nearly undetectable.


Yah, you're right. But you have to consider the context. I was posting in response to a thread then (and apparently still -- we're in it) current in which fractions of 1% normative (ideal state) difference -- of no possible perceptible concern to real world cyclists -- were held up by the usual suspects as reasons for a whole chorus of hallelujahs. And those were laboratory results, so I made the point that what counts for the cyclist is the actual on-the-road *average* efficiency, where the enclosed hub gearbox, especially with an efficient chain enclosure (I mentioned the Hebie Chainglider with which many known cyclists have had good experience in the years since I first recommended it), clearly starts scoring after some miles. I never said that I was talking about more than a very few per cent. The entire conversation that I was dissing was an example of obsessive compulsive disorder.

However, while I further agree with you that an open grease-less gear cluster, while clean and with a straight chainlink, is more efficient than an enclosed oil bath gear-cluster or one filled with grease, the hub I was holding up as the most efficient, the Rohloff Speed Hub 14, doesn't have anything resembling an oil bath or even grease inside it. It isn't even sealed like an automative gearbox; excess oil just "mists out" and its breather hole is dead centre in the axle, so that excess oil won't stay in it long. All it has, in my application and that of the most knowledgeable users, is 12-14ml of thin oil to cover the gears' mating surfaces. That's good for a year or 5000km/3000, after which the hub is serviced and that oil layer washed off (by a winter thickness oil, even thinner) and renewed. If you're interested in the details, see my article "Power-servicing your Rohloff" at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13327

Andre Jute]
Perspective
  #13  
Old June 14th 19, 05:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 558
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:02:05 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.


My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf


I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


I said it before Tom, with those numbers you are Pro Team material. I did a reasonable hard ride today, 100 km 1350 m elevation. I managed an average of 188 Watt for almost 4 hours, measured with a power meter. My Garmin detected a new FTP setting of 215 Watt today. I'm 62 yr old and weigh 75 kg at the moment. I'm certainly not Pro Team material ;-).

Lou
  #14  
Old June 14th 19, 07:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 4,372
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 9:58:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:02:05 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf


I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


I said it before Tom, with those numbers you are Pro Team material. I did a reasonable hard ride today, 100 km 1350 m elevation. I managed an average of 188 Watt for almost 4 hours, measured with a power meter. My Garmin detected a new FTP setting of 215 Watt today. I'm 62 yr old and weigh 75 kg at the moment. I'm certainly not Pro Team material ;-).


Did you go to Belgium or do laps on the Vaalserberg?

-- Jay Beattie.
  #15  
Old June 14th 19, 08:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
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Posts: 385
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On 14/06/2019 12:58 p.m., wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:02:05 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf


I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


I said it before Tom, with those numbers you are Pro Team material. I did a reasonable hard ride today, 100 km 1350 m elevation. I managed an average of 188 Watt for almost 4 hours, measured with a power meter. My Garmin detected a new FTP setting of 215 Watt today. I'm 62 yr old and weigh 75 kg at the moment. I'm certainly not Pro Team material ;-).

Lou


We're the same age and about the same weight. My FTP is 168. I just
did a 100k Sunday with 800 meters elevation and averaged 140 w. Maybe I
should have sprung for the Neo. lol
  #16  
Old June 14th 19, 08:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 558
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:12:10 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 9:58:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:02:05 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf

I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.


I said it before Tom, with those numbers you are Pro Team material. I did a reasonable hard ride today, 100 km 1350 m elevation. I managed an average of 188 Watt for almost 4 hours, measured with a power meter. My Garmin detected a new FTP setting of 215 Watt today. I'm 62 yr old and weigh 75 kg at the moment. I'm certainly not Pro Team material ;-).


Did you go to Belgium or do laps on the Vaalserberg?

-- Jay Beattie.


Ha, something like that ;-) We have our hilly part in the Netherlands. From where I live it is a 45 minutes drive first;

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3746567378

A lot of short (steep) climbs, you know from The Amstel Gold Classic, won by Mathieu van de Poel this year.

Lou
  #17  
Old June 14th 19, 11:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 4,372
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:12:10 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 9:58:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:02:05 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf

I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.

I said it before Tom, with those numbers you are Pro Team material. I did a reasonable hard ride today, 100 km 1350 m elevation. I managed an average of 188 Watt for almost 4 hours, measured with a power meter. My Garmin detected a new FTP setting of 215 Watt today. I'm 62 yr old and weigh 75 kg at the moment. I'm certainly not Pro Team material ;-).


Did you go to Belgium or do laps on the Vaalserberg?

-- Jay Beattie.


Ha, something like that ;-) We have our hilly part in the Netherlands. From where I live it is a 45 minutes drive first;

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3746567378

A lot of short (steep) climbs, you know from The Amstel Gold Classic, won by Mathieu van de Poel this year.


One forgets! BTW, the CX guys are really putting on a show. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-...ine-stage-win/ Incroyable.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #18  
Old June 15th 19, 07:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 558
Default Chain alignment friction losses

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 12:47:01 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:12:10 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 9:58:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:02:05 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf

I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.

I said it before Tom, with those numbers you are Pro Team material. I did a reasonable hard ride today, 100 km 1350 m elevation. I managed an average of 188 Watt for almost 4 hours, measured with a power meter. My Garmin detected a new FTP setting of 215 Watt today. I'm 62 yr old and weigh 75 kg at the moment. I'm certainly not Pro Team material ;-).

Did you go to Belgium or do laps on the Vaalserberg?

-- Jay Beattie.


Ha, something like that ;-) We have our hilly part in the Netherlands. From where I live it is a 45 minutes drive first;

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3746567378

A lot of short (steep) climbs, you know from The Amstel Gold Classic, won by Mathieu van de Poel this year.


One forgets! BTW, the CX guys are really putting on a show. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/van-...ine-stage-win/ Incroyable.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes they really kick ass. I was surprized Wout could outsprint Sam Bennett and Julian Alaphilippe. Never thought he was that kind of a winner. Mathieu is really something. Won a road classic, national champion on the road, ATB and cross, won already a ATB world cup race. Where does that end. He announced that he will participate in the world road championship in semptember..

Lou
Lou
  #19  
Old June 15th 19, 04:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,372
Default Chain alignment friction losses -- Dangers of Nose Blowing

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 11:54:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 12:47:01 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 8:12:10 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 9:58:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:02:05 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 1:07:11 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.06.2019 um 01:21 schrieb John B.:
As an aside, 250 watts is probably as high, or perhaps higher, than
the usual recreational cyclist normally produces.

My health insurance says 2 watts per kilogram body mass is a healthy,
above average value. So a normal recreational cyclist is likely to have
a sustained output on the order of 100W (typical female, 50kg) to 150W
(typical male, 75kg).

Rolf

I'm nearly 75 and 6'4" and have fattened up to 190 lbs with something of a small roll around my middle and can sustain 350 watts for over 10 minutes and a continuous 250 watts. Since everyone on two wheels seems faster than me I have to wonder about that claim.

I said it before Tom, with those numbers you are Pro Team material. I did a reasonable hard ride today, 100 km 1350 m elevation. I managed an average of 188 Watt for almost 4 hours, measured with a power meter. My Garmin detected a new FTP setting of 215 Watt today. I'm 62 yr old and weigh 75 kg at the moment. I'm certainly not Pro Team material ;-).

Did you go to Belgium or do laps on the Vaalserberg?

-- Jay Beattie.

Ha, something like that ;-) We have our hilly part in the Netherlands.. From where I live it is a 45 minutes drive first;

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3746567378

A lot of short (steep) climbs, you know from The Amstel Gold Classic, won by Mathieu van de Poel this year.


One forgets! BTW, the CX guys are really putting on a show. http://www..cyclingnews.com/news/van...ine-stage-win/ Incroyable.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes they really kick ass. I was surprized Wout could outsprint Sam Bennett and Julian Alaphilippe. Never thought he was that kind of a winner. Mathieu is really something. Won a road classic, national champion on the road, ATB and cross, won already a ATB world cup race. Where does that end. He announced that he will participate in the world road championship in semptember.


There may be an opening on Ineos. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...spital-injured

Must have been a strong wind -- I kind of doubt he took both hands off the bars to blow his nose.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #20  
Old June 16th 19, 02:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
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Posts: 582
Default Chain alignment friction losses -- Dangers of Nose Blowing

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 08:53:31 -0700, jbeattie wrote:

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 11:54:38 PM UTC-7, wrote:


There may be an opening on Ineos.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...me-doubt-tour-

de-france-crash-criterium-hospital-injured

Must have been a strong wind -- I kind of doubt he took both hands off
the bars to blow his nose.


to borrow from other threads; rubbish on the road?
Such as an errent stone.
 




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