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John Forester Speaks



 
 
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  #31  
Old October 6th 19, 03:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default John Forester Speaks

On 10/5/2019 11:14 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-03 15:10, Tom Kunich wrote:

Remember that John Forrester was the early proponent of vehicular
cycling. It wasn't until the wild-eyed crying for bicycle "roads"
began that he as a person with a normal mind tried to show people
that the road system that we have all over the US can accommodate
everyone.


It can but all it takes is 10% of car drivers being aggressive or
inattentive. With the advent of smart phones that percentage has gone up.


The PROBLEM is the "Var is King" attitude of everyone including the
cops who won't cite drivers who take chances with the lives of others
whom they consider in their way. And this isn't limited to cyclists
but pedestrians and cars driving the speed limit as well.



The main problem is that cars have crumple zones, safety belts,
protected cockpits and airbags. Bicycles don't.


IOW, "Danger! Danger!"

I just got back from a nighttime utility ride, to a grocery and a
pharmacy, a little over six miles. First, except for about 1.5 blocks,
there was no multi-use path that could get me there, and there never
will be. This is a suburban area that is already built, and even if they
wanted to put in a special path for my every destination, it would be
impossible.

Second, I saw no evidence that 10% or even 1% of the motorists were
aggressive or inattentive. The biggest irritation I had with a motorist
was the one excessively careful one who refused to pass me for about
four blocks despite the lack of oncoming traffic.

And to deviate from the thread topic just a bit: I rode (as always) with
my dynamo powered headlight and taillight. I had not trouble surviving
the trip while riding on residential streets, collector streets or a
commercial state highway.

I've been riding like this since the 1970s. If I had waited for a
Joergian paradise to be built, I'd probably be 40 pounds heavier and
would have missed over 40 years of wonderful cycling experiences.

The "We must have separate facilities" crowd is actively scaring people
away from riding here and now. They are denying others the joys I have
experienced and still experience.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #32  
Old October 6th 19, 06:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default John Forester Speaks

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 8:13:56 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-03 15:10, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 1:11:03 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/3/2019 8:00 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I disagree with many of the things John Forester advocates. In
this interview he clearly dodged a key point:

Quote, "[Interviewer] ... I'm not a transportation policy person
but I would guess that there's data now to demonstrate that on
avenues where protected infrastructure has gone in that incidents
with serious injury or death have gone down since that
infrastructure go put in. So I feel like I see evidence in the US
that in some places at least where it's practical, that protected
infrastructure can make a difference and vastly increase the
number of people who feel safer riding a bike.

JF: Your statement is full of false assumptions." ... and then he
veered off the topic above.

Which "false assumptions"? The interviewer was correct, the vast
majority of cyclists prefers cycling infrastructure.

Exactly. He dodges the questions then he goes off on a tangent of
using a single example of someone he knows as "proof."

A favorite ridiculous statement I picked out was this one:

"JF: Sure. Because it entices some cyclists into facilities that
are inherently more dangerous than riding in the street. And you
can prove that because New York has to put in special traffic
signal phases to try to prevent that are created by the sidepath."

Huh? The addition of phases for the side path doesn't prove that
the facilities are inherently more dangerous than riding in the
street, just that riding on the side path is different than riding
in the street. It's just like in Effective Cycling which is full of
logical fallacies that anyone with critical thinking skills will
instantly recognize.

snip

All others prefer, like myself, good quality bike paths. Even
the serious commuters do who easily spend 50mi/day on their
bikes. What many do is a split commute. They truck their bikes to
parking lots near the American River Bike Path an then continue
the commute by bicycle. In the evening all in reverse.

In my area, while some of the bicycle infrastructure only is
suitable for lower speeds than can be achieved on the road, the net
commute time is lower because of the lack of stop signs and traffic
lights, and because often the bicycle route is more direct than the
route on the road.


Remember that John Forrester was the early proponent of vehicular
cycling. It wasn't until the wild-eyed crying for bicycle "roads"
began that he as a person with a normal mind tried to show people
that the road system that we have all over the US can accommodate
everyone.


It can but all it takes is 10% of car drivers being aggressive or
inattentive. With the advent of smart phones that percentage has gone up.


The PROBLEM is the "Var is King" attitude of everyone including the
cops who won't cite drivers who take chances with the lives of others
whom they consider in their way. And this isn't limited to cyclists
but pedestrians and cars driving the speed limit as well.



The main problem is that cars have crumple zones, safety belts,
protected cockpits and airbags. Bicycles don't.


... I was
pulled over by a cop once apparently because I was suspiciously
driving the speed limit.


I was pulled over, cited and had to pay for busting a road speed limit.
On a road bike. The 2nd time they let me go because I had no residence
in WA state.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


I have been watching this very carefully since the arguments about this started and while aggressive drivers are real it appears that they are a aggressive towards everyone and not cyclists in particular. And this number is much closer to 0.1%. Again I have to underscore that it the traffic laws are enforced for motor vehicles this would stop rather abruptly. Yesterday a dumbass pickup truck with snow tires and reverse rims came up behind me in the bike lane pulled around and instead of staying out in a perfectly spacious lane pulled back over into the bike lane. He did this in front of TWO police cars that were facing the opposite direction and had a clear view of what occurred and neither of them did a thing.

Later I was passing two double parked cars and some horses ass pulled out of a driveway without even looking. Again a cop was passing to no effect.
  #33  
Old October 7th 19, 03:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default John Forester Speaks

On 2019-10-06 10:42, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 8:13:56 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-03 15:10, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 1:11:03 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/3/2019 8:00 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I disagree with many of the things John Forester advocates.
In this interview he clearly dodged a key point:

Quote, "[Interviewer] ... I'm not a transportation policy
person but I would guess that there's data now to demonstrate
that on avenues where protected infrastructure has gone in
that incidents with serious injury or death have gone down
since that infrastructure go put in. So I feel like I see
evidence in the US that in some places at least where it's
practical, that protected infrastructure can make a
difference and vastly increase the number of people who feel
safer riding a bike.

JF: Your statement is full of false assumptions." ... and
then he veered off the topic above.

Which "false assumptions"? The interviewer was correct, the
vast majority of cyclists prefers cycling infrastructure.

Exactly. He dodges the questions then he goes off on a tangent
of using a single example of someone he knows as "proof."

A favorite ridiculous statement I picked out was this one:

"JF: Sure. Because it entices some cyclists into facilities
that are inherently more dangerous than riding in the street.
And you can prove that because New York has to put in special
traffic signal phases to try to prevent that are created by the
sidepath."

Huh? The addition of phases for the side path doesn't prove
that the facilities are inherently more dangerous than riding
in the street, just that riding on the side path is different
than riding in the street. It's just like in Effective Cycling
which is full of logical fallacies that anyone with critical
thinking skills will instantly recognize.

snip

All others prefer, like myself, good quality bike paths.
Even the serious commuters do who easily spend 50mi/day on
their bikes. What many do is a split commute. They truck
their bikes to parking lots near the American River Bike Path
an then continue the commute by bicycle. In the evening all
in reverse.

In my area, while some of the bicycle infrastructure only is
suitable for lower speeds than can be achieved on the road, the
net commute time is lower because of the lack of stop signs and
traffic lights, and because often the bicycle route is more
direct than the route on the road.

Remember that John Forrester was the early proponent of
vehicular cycling. It wasn't until the wild-eyed crying for
bicycle "roads" began that he as a person with a normal mind
tried to show people that the road system that we have all over
the US can accommodate everyone.


It can but all it takes is 10% of car drivers being aggressive or
inattentive. With the advent of smart phones that percentage has
gone up.


The PROBLEM is the "Var is King" attitude of everyone including
the cops who won't cite drivers who take chances with the lives
of others whom they consider in their way. And this isn't limited
to cyclists but pedestrians and cars driving the speed limit as
well.



The main problem is that cars have crumple zones, safety belts,
protected cockpits and airbags. Bicycles don't.


... I was pulled over by a cop once apparently because I was
suspiciously driving the speed limit.


I was pulled over, cited and had to pay for busting a road speed
limit. On a road bike. The 2nd time they let me go because I had no
residence in WA state.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


I have been watching this very carefully since the arguments about
this started and while aggressive drivers are real it appears that
they are a aggressive towards everyone and not cyclists in
particular.



The main difference is that my car is very sturdy (SUV) and has crumple
zones while my unprotected body on the road bike doesn't.


... And this number is much closer to 0.1%. ...



IME that is not so.


... Again I have to
underscore that it the traffic laws are enforced for motor vehicles
this would stop rather abruptly.



They never will be enforced enough when it comes to behavior in relation
to weaker traffic participants.


... Yesterday a dumbass pickup truck
with snow tires and reverse rims came up behind me in the bike lane
pulled around and instead of staying out in a perfectly spacious lane
pulled back over into the bike lane. He did this in front of TWO
police cars that were facing the opposite direction and had a clear
view of what occurred and neither of them did a thing.


And what did the cops do? I bet they did nothing.


Later I was passing two double parked cars and some horses ass pulled
out of a driveway without even looking. Again a cop was passing to no
effect.


See? The usual. I only did a small 18mi after-church ride yesterday and
sure enough ... cars parked all along in the bike lane because of a
couple of events. So me in the lane. A guy in a white VW Golf came up
very close to my rear wheel and when I was able to pull back into the
bike lane he floored it. Others find it funny to "smoke you" as
punishment for inconveniencing them, by down-shifting their big Diesel
and then stomping on it.

The number of idiots is surprisingly high in motor vehicles.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #34  
Old October 7th 19, 03:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lars Lehtonen[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default John Forester Speaks

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Chalo wrote:
I don't want special bike-specific infrastructure. I want the cars gone, restricted to special motorsports facilities during limited hours and with extremely heavy taxation to help mitigate their pollution and noise.


I'm fine with an interim period where the cars stay, but with a 20mph
speed limit.

- ---
Lars Lehtonen
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  #35  
Old October 7th 19, 03:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default John Forester Speaks

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 7:47:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-06 10:42, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 8:13:56 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-03 15:10, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 1:11:03 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/3/2019 8:00 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

I disagree with many of the things John Forester advocates.
In this interview he clearly dodged a key point:

Quote, "[Interviewer] ... I'm not a transportation policy
person but I would guess that there's data now to demonstrate
that on avenues where protected infrastructure has gone in
that incidents with serious injury or death have gone down
since that infrastructure go put in. So I feel like I see
evidence in the US that in some places at least where it's
practical, that protected infrastructure can make a
difference and vastly increase the number of people who feel
safer riding a bike.

JF: Your statement is full of false assumptions." ... and
then he veered off the topic above.

Which "false assumptions"? The interviewer was correct, the
vast majority of cyclists prefers cycling infrastructure.

Exactly. He dodges the questions then he goes off on a tangent
of using a single example of someone he knows as "proof."

A favorite ridiculous statement I picked out was this one:

"JF: Sure. Because it entices some cyclists into facilities
that are inherently more dangerous than riding in the street.
And you can prove that because New York has to put in special
traffic signal phases to try to prevent that are created by the
sidepath."

Huh? The addition of phases for the side path doesn't prove
that the facilities are inherently more dangerous than riding
in the street, just that riding on the side path is different
than riding in the street. It's just like in Effective Cycling
which is full of logical fallacies that anyone with critical
thinking skills will instantly recognize.

snip

All others prefer, like myself, good quality bike paths.
Even the serious commuters do who easily spend 50mi/day on
their bikes. What many do is a split commute. They truck
their bikes to parking lots near the American River Bike Path
an then continue the commute by bicycle. In the evening all
in reverse.

In my area, while some of the bicycle infrastructure only is
suitable for lower speeds than can be achieved on the road, the
net commute time is lower because of the lack of stop signs and
traffic lights, and because often the bicycle route is more
direct than the route on the road.

Remember that John Forrester was the early proponent of
vehicular cycling. It wasn't until the wild-eyed crying for
bicycle "roads" began that he as a person with a normal mind
tried to show people that the road system that we have all over
the US can accommodate everyone.


It can but all it takes is 10% of car drivers being aggressive or
inattentive. With the advent of smart phones that percentage has
gone up.


The PROBLEM is the "Var is King" attitude of everyone including
the cops who won't cite drivers who take chances with the lives
of others whom they consider in their way. And this isn't limited
to cyclists but pedestrians and cars driving the speed limit as
well.


The main problem is that cars have crumple zones, safety belts,
protected cockpits and airbags. Bicycles don't.


... I was pulled over by a cop once apparently because I was
suspiciously driving the speed limit.


I was pulled over, cited and had to pay for busting a road speed
limit. On a road bike. The 2nd time they let me go because I had no
residence in WA state.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


I have been watching this very carefully since the arguments about
this started and while aggressive drivers are real it appears that
they are a aggressive towards everyone and not cyclists in
particular.



The main difference is that my car is very sturdy (SUV) and has crumple
zones while my unprotected body on the road bike doesn't.


... And this number is much closer to 0.1%. ...



IME that is not so.


... Again I have to
underscore that it the traffic laws are enforced for motor vehicles
this would stop rather abruptly.



They never will be enforced enough when it comes to behavior in relation
to weaker traffic participants.


... Yesterday a dumbass pickup truck
with snow tires and reverse rims came up behind me in the bike lane
pulled around and instead of staying out in a perfectly spacious lane
pulled back over into the bike lane. He did this in front of TWO
police cars that were facing the opposite direction and had a clear
view of what occurred and neither of them did a thing.


And what did the cops do? I bet they did nothing.


Later I was passing two double parked cars and some horses ass pulled
out of a driveway without even looking. Again a cop was passing to no
effect.


See? The usual. I only did a small 18mi after-church ride yesterday and
sure enough ... cars parked all along in the bike lane because of a
couple of events. So me in the lane. A guy in a white VW Golf came up
very close to my rear wheel and when I was able to pull back into the
bike lane he floored it. Others find it funny to "smoke you" as
punishment for inconveniencing them, by down-shifting their big Diesel
and then stomping on it.

The number of idiots is surprisingly high in motor vehicles.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


At 75 I have crumple zones everywhere.
  #36  
Old October 7th 19, 05:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,231
Default John Forester Speaks

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 8:08:12 AM UTC-7, Lars Lehtonen wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Chalo wrote:
I don't want special bike-specific infrastructure. I want the cars gone, restricted to special motorsports facilities during limited hours and with extremely heavy taxation to help mitigate their pollution and noise.


I'm fine with an interim period where the cars stay, but with a 20mph
speed limit.


I don't mind cars with reasonable speed limits. The problem is that they do not have reasonable speed limits in California. School zones used to require 15 mph when children were about. Now it is 25 and almost everyone exceeds that by 10 mph. I have people riding my bumper when I pass schools in session and with breaks at 15 mph.

And even with highly unsafe speed limits everywhere when cars exceed these by 10 mph or more the cops do NOTHING. I recovered from by concussion and started riding again at the end of 2012. Since then I have seen perhaps 2 (two) autos pulled over for extremely unsafe driving. But then I don't go out at light usually and so don't get involved with the cops who like to pull over vehicles doing the actual speed limit as "probably being drunk".

  #37  
Old October 7th 19, 05:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default John Forester Speaks

On 10/7/2019 10:50 AM, Lars Lehtonen wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Chalo wrote:
I don't want special bike-specific infrastructure. I want the cars gone, restricted to special motorsports facilities during limited hours and with extremely heavy taxation to help mitigate their pollution and noise.


I'm fine with an interim period where the cars stay, but with a 20mph


Here in the U.S., a universal 20 mph speed limit would never, ever be
accepted - not even by me. It would make it impossible to ever visit my
family members and most of my friends.

20 mph in residential and heavily used business and shopping areas could
make sense, though.

I would have said it could make sense any place there are more than a
few pedestrians or bicyclists, except that in most of the U.S. there are
very, very few pedestrians or bicyclists. Almost the entire country has
been built with the automobile in mind. That's very difficult to change.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #38  
Old October 7th 19, 06:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default John Forester Speaks

On 2019-10-07 07:54, Tom Kunich wrote:

[...]


At 75 I have crumple zones everywhere.


Those are called wrinkle zones :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #39  
Old October 7th 19, 10:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default John Forester Speaks

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 6:42:50 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
Yesterday a dumbass pickup truck with snow tires and reverse rims came up behind me in the bike lane pulled around and instead of staying out in a perfectly spacious lane pulled back over into the bike lane. He did this in front of TWO police cars that were facing the opposite direction and had a clear view of what occurred and neither of them did a thing.


This sort of thing would not happen if policemen were on bicycles. Here in Ireland I know some retired policemen who can remember when country policemen (perhaps city policemen too; I didn't ask) patrolled on bicycles. But part of the greater security for cyclists on the roads when I came to live here 40 years ago, after the policemen were long in cars and on foot at least in the village centre, was simply that the roads carried only light internal combustion traffic.

Andre Jute
Belt and braces
  #40  
Old October 7th 19, 10:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default John Forester Speaks

On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 6:02:40 PM UTC+1, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-10-07 07:54, Tom Kunich wrote:

[...]


At 75 I have crumple zones everywhere.


Those are called wrinkle zones :-)


Heh-heh!

AJ
 




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