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#21
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
Steve Freides wrote:
You've got a lot of assumptions in your thinking, e.g., wider tires being a "major determinant of comfy riding." * That isn't just an assumption; it is observable, measurable fact. If you think there is any other factor besides bike fit that has as big an effect on ride comfort as tire size and pressure, you are simply mistaken. Pneumatic tires' ride benefits were amply demonstrated as soon as they came to market in 1890, and the relationship between tire size and ride comfort has been well understood for over a century. I agree that the OP shouldn't get hung up on marketing details or materials, but owning any bike that can't accommodate at least a 28mm tire is just a stupid thing to do, even if you are a bantamweight. Chalo |
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#22
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
On Jan 3, 11:40*am, Chalo wrote:
Jean wrote: Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: Keep in mind it's available in a compact-crank version only, no triple. If you need really low gears, the rear derailleur can be changed to a long cage version and you can install an 11-32, 11-34 or even an 11-36 in the back. If the rear derailleur and freewheel are changed as you indicated to get lower gearing, is the shifting likely to be "really annoyingly slow" or would it probably be "just a tad slow, but acceptable"? If you switch to a fancy MTB derailleur and a fancy MTB cassette, then it will shift like a fancy MTB-- which is to say at least as well as a road bike (if perhaps a little noisier in the process). Chalo Noisier due to larger jumps between the cogs, for sure. But still perfectly fine. I'd look at riding style. A large cassette for the person who invariably just leaves the front mech alone, isn't the worst solution. That said, the Jamis Eclipse I'm familiar with has a 34-28 low out of the box, which is pretty alpine gearing. Horse for courses, I run a touring triple with a corncob in the city. works for me, but so would a compact with a 12-32. |
#23
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
Jay Beattie wrote:
And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K- $3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical the Bohemian builder might be. *It's f****** metal fab! A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially conceived for the user and unique in its details. Just like if you're buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege. A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very expensive mold. A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke. Chalo |
#24
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
On Jan 3, 11:54*am, Chalo wrote:
I agree that the OP shouldn't get hung up on marketing details or materials, but owning any bike that can't accommodate at least a 28mm tire is just a stupid thing to do, even if you are a bantamweight. Indeed. Even if the OP continues to use 23s, which are fine for her small mass, there might be a temptation to go on a gravel road ride, or do a wet brevet with fenders. |
#25
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
On 1/3/2011 1:02 PM, Chalo wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote: And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K- $3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical the Bohemian builder might be. It's f****** metal fab! If I ever get to the point where I will spend 3k on a frame, it would probably be a steel lugged custom Marinoni. Not likely soon. http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/IndexEn.html A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially conceived for the user and unique in its details. Just like if you're buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege. +1 A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very expensive mold. I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. But I got a complete bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike. A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke. +1 |
#26
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
Steve Freides wrote:
You've got a lot of assumptions in your thinking, e.g., wider tires being a "major determinant of comfy riding." Chalo wrote: That isn't just an assumption; it is observable, measurable fact. If you think there is any other factor besides bike fit that has as big an effect on ride comfort as tire size and pressure, you are simply mistaken. Pneumatic tires' ride benefits were amply demonstrated as soon as they came to market in 1890, and the relationship between tire size and ride comfort has been well understood for over a century. I agree that the OP shouldn't get hung up on marketing details or materials, but owning any bike that can't accommodate at least a 28mm tire is just a stupid thing to do, even if you are a bantamweight. It's not categorically stupid at all. It's well within the realm of taste which, in humans, varies wondrously. My Kestrel 200SC fixie with 22mm tubs and full length steel mudguards is amazingly comfortable. (for me; maybe not for you) -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#27
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
On Jan 3, 10:28*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/3/2011 1:02 PM, Chalo wrote: Jay Beattie wrote: And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K- $3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical the Bohemian builder might be. *It's f****** metal fab! If I ever get to the point where I will spend 3k on a frame, it would probably be a steel lugged custom Marinoni. *Not likely soon. http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/IndexEn.html A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially conceived for the user and unique in its details. *Just like if you're buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege. +1 A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very expensive mold. I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. *But I got a complete bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike. A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke. +1 Except that it is not true. Tooling and machinery to make proprietary hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap, nor are heat treating ovens/ tanks, TIG torches, etc. No lugs are used, but dynafiling, clean up and all the other work associated with metal frames applies to aluminum -- at least to a top-end aluminum frame. Not true of Nashbar $90 frames, obviously. The molds for CF are not cheap, assuming molds are used -- and the materials are expensive and proprietary, including internal lugs, BB shells, fiber weaves and orientation, etc., etc. Trek is spending money on design and product development. Calfee and others make custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles, but even some of the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary) processes. In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop, that is where I go to fix my steel frames. BTW,.I saw award winners at the hand-built bicycle show who had built five or ten frames. File, file, file and make it pretty. God only knows how long they will last. And yes, the TT maybe longer or shorter by a couple of mms, and you can call that custom, but not very. Most people do not need custom bikes -- not with the advent of seat posts over 210mm and stems in a variety of lengths and rises. I worked with a frame builder 30 years ago and worked on my own frames and have a good idea of what it takes. I appreciate the artisan aspect of the job -- but gawdamighty $4K for a Sachs frame? It's a damn frame and not piping at a nuke plant. I would rather spend $2,500 and go to Ashland for two weeks to make my own frame. http://www.bikeschool.com/classes/fr...frame-building I love Ashland -- great riding in the Siskiyous. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajmstudios/4498524566/ http://www.outdoorexposurephoto.com/...ges/16034.html Stay at my brother-in-laws and still come home with a spare $1K. -- Jay Beattie. |
#28
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
On 1/3/2011 2:09 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jan 3, 10:28 am, Duane wrote: On 1/3/2011 1:02 PM, Chalo wrote: Jay Beattie wrote: And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K- $3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical the Bohemian builder might be. It's f****** metal fab! If I ever get to the point where I will spend 3k on a frame, it would probably be a steel lugged custom Marinoni. Not likely soon. http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/IndexEn.html A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially conceived for the user and unique in its details. Just like if you're buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege. +1 A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very expensive mold. I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. But I got a complete bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike. A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke. +1 Except that it is not true. Tooling and machinery to make proprietary hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap, nor are heat treating ovens/ tanks, TIG torches, etc. No lugs are used, but dynafiling, clean up and all the other work associated with metal frames applies to aluminum -- at least to a top-end aluminum frame. Not true of Nashbar $90 frames, obviously. The molds for CF are not cheap, assuming molds are used -- and the materials are expensive and proprietary, including internal lugs, BB shells, fiber weaves and orientation, etc., etc. Trek is spending money on design and product development. Calfee and others make custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles, but even some of the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary) processes. In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop, that is where I go to fix my steel frames. Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? I suspect that he works in a shop but I'm certain that I don't g |
#29
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
On Jan 3, 11:33*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/3/2011 2:09 PM, Jay Beattie wrote: On Jan 3, 10:28 am, Duane *wrote: On 1/3/2011 1:02 PM, Chalo wrote: Jay Beattie wrote: And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K- $3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical the Bohemian builder might be. *It's f****** metal fab! If I ever get to the point where I will spend 3k on a frame, it would probably be a steel lugged custom Marinoni. *Not likely soon. http://www.marinoni.qc.ca/IndexEn.html A $3k steel frame is a work of art (good or bad) that is specially conceived for the user and unique in its details. *Just like if you're buying jewelry or a gun, if you want something unique and handmade from the best materials, you'll pay a surcharge for the privilege. +1 A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very expensive mold. I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. *But I got a complete bike for *$2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike. A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke. +1 Except that it is not true. *Tooling and machinery to make proprietary hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap, nor are heat treating ovens/ tanks, TIG torches, etc. *No lugs are used, but dynafiling, clean up and all the other work associated with metal frames applies to aluminum -- at least to a top-end aluminum frame. Not true of Nashbar $90 frames, obviously. The molds for CF are not cheap, assuming molds are used -- and the materials are expensive and proprietary, including internal lugs, BB shells, fiber weaves and orientation, etc., etc. *Trek is spending money on design and product development. *Calfee and others make custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles, but even some of the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary) processes. In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop, that is where I go to fix my steel frames. Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? *I suspect that he works in a shop but I'm certain that I don't g- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Sorry, yes, Chalo. He can probably pop out a CroMo frame in four hours. -- Jay Beattie. |
#30
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Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?
Jay Beattie wrote:
Duane Hébert wrote: Chalo wrote: A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very expensive mold. I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. *But I got a complete bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike. A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke. +1 Except that it is not true. *Tooling and machinery to make proprietary hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap, --nor necessary, nor even of any identifiable advantage except for branding purposes. There's not even a noteworthy artistic payoff, since the result is just a mass-produced-in-Taiwan/China frame. No lugs are used, but dynafiling, As opposed to careful hand filing, just sayin'. clean up What clean up? There's no flux, no slag, no corrosive residue on a freshly welded aluminum frame. If the weld was a little spattery, you wire brush it. Otherwise it goes straight in the tank for chromate conversion coating, or if you're cutting corners it goes straight to the paint booth. You can file the welds for cosmetics, but that's not rocket surgery. I have owned a lot of Cannondales since the '80s. I recognize that those frames are not nearly as crude as what's on the peg at Nashbar or Walmart-- but they're still not the sort of handmade essentially Victorian artifact that a lugged steel frame is. A nicely sophisticated aluminum frame should cost several hundred dollars rather than a hundred or two. I paid $600 for my 68.5cm C'dale touring frameset in 1991. It has been more than worth it for me. It was also a *big* fat margin for C'dale. Calfee and others make custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles, More like papier-mâché with paper towel rolls. but even some of the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary) processes. I used to make hand laid fiberglass vacuum-pressure injection molded electric motor-generator armatures capable of handling 300kW. (Looked like a straw boater two feet in diameter.) Those were expensive and complicated compared to a bike frame. In this case, "proprietary" means we don't actually know how nicely or crudely they are made. Given how very similar the expensive stuff is to the cheap stuff in terms of weight and observable properties, I can only think that "proprietary" ain't all that. In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop, that is where I go to fix my steel frames. You're suggesting that because you can knit at home, a handmade sweater is worth no more than a mass-produced t-shirt? Or are you suggesting that a plastic bag is better because you can't make one at home? BTW,.I saw award winners at the hand-built bicycle show who had built five or ten frames. *File, file, file and make it pretty. *God only knows how long they will last. * That's a relevant question. But those are art shows, and the winning bikes are art objects. I wouldn't expect much reliable service of (for instance) the Naked Bikes NAHBS prizewinner that's down the street at Lance's shop. But it looks cool, and now it's on display at Lance's shop. It's really good for that purpose. http://www.mellowjohnnys.com/uploads...oushfloor2.jpg And yes, the TT maybe longer or shorter by a couple of mms, and you can call that custom, but not very. * The only reason to buy a custom when you can buy approximately the same thing as a stock item is to have a handmade version with all your favorite details. That's not enough for me, but then I don't buy much art of any kind. My custom frame is so "custom" that even Waterford Precision wouldn't make it for me. I didn't ask, but I doubt Richard Sachs or Sacha White would have made me a frame that didn't fit on their jigs, either. Chalo |
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