Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?

Jay Beattie wrote:

Duane Hébert wrote:

Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? *I suspect that he works in a
shop but I'm certain that I don't g- Hide quoted text -

Sorry, yes, Chalo. *He can probably pop out a CroMo frame in four
hours.

Man, I wish. But in just the right shop environment, maybe so.

Chalo

On Jan 3, 5:28*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

And as far as cost goes, high end steel goes for $2K-
$3K frame alone, which I think is ridiculous, no matter how magical
the Bohemian builder might be. *It's f****** metal fab!. -- Jay Beattie..

A Bohemian frame is a work of art, Jay. You pay for conception and
detailing beyond the commodity value. Today I'm wearing a minute
repeater watch, not because I'm blind and need the time pinged out but
simply because I appreciate the special technical problem and solution
and am willing to pay for fine engineering. I have other watches,
some, like my cycling watch, originally bought for sport flying, of
greater utility, but others bought just because they were beautiful or
of technical interest, for instance I have an Eterna-Matic 3000 with
the 1466-U ebauche, which is thinner than any Patek, but I have it
because its ebauche, its gubbins, is the progenitor of virtually every
upmarket watch you buy today. Why shouldn't I, or Chalo, want a
special frame, and be willing to pay for it? I have no doubt Chalo is
capable of brazing his own frame, and making an artistically valid job
of it, but he was honouring another artist when he ordered his frame.
That has to be a good thing. There is no earthly reason bicycles
should be merely utilitarian commodities.

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf

Duane Hébert wrote:

Jay Beattie wrote:

In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.

Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? *I suspect that he works in a
shop but I'm certain that I don't g

Hey, maybe you should consider it! "Vélocipèdes Artisanales par
Maître Douain Hébert." Sounds expensive.

Chalo

On 1/3/2011 3:45 PM, Chalo wrote:
Duane Hébert wrote:

Jay Beattie wrote:

In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.

Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? I suspect that he works in a
shop but I'm certain that I don'tg

Hey, maybe you should consider it! "Vélocipèdes Artisanales par
Maître Douain Hébert." Sounds expensive.

LOL. But I'm afraid that if it doesn't start with

int main() {

I'm going to be lost.

Chalo wrote:
Steve Freides wrote:

You've got a lot of assumptions in your thinking, e.g., wider tires
being a "major determinant of comfy riding."

That isn't just an assumption; it is observable, measurable fact. If
you think there is any other factor besides bike fit that has as big
an effect on ride comfort as tire size and pressure, you are simply
mistaken.

Pneumatic tires' ride benefits were amply demonstrated as soon as they
came to market in 1890, and the relationship between tire size and
ride comfort has been well understood for over a century.

I agree that the OP shouldn't get hung up on marketing details or
materials, but owning any bike that can't accommodate at least a 28mm
tire is just a stupid thing to do, even if you are a bantamweight.

It is an observable, measurable fact about which you are providing
incomplete, misleading information. Tire pressure makes a great deal of
difference, not tire size. The main reason fatties like fat tires is so
that they can ride them at comfortably low pressures and not get pinch
flats. Our OP weighs 118 lbs. and has no need for fat tires on a road
bike.

-S-

On 1/3/2011 11:54 AM, Chalo Colina wrote:
That isn't just an assumption; it is observable, measurable fact. If
you think there is any other factor besides bike fit that has as big
an effect on ride comfort as tire size and pressure, you are simply
mistaken.[...]

Er, suspension?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 1/3/2011 2:34 PM, Chalo Colina wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:

Duane Hébert wrote:

Chalo wrote:

A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very
expensive mold.

I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would
appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. But I got a complete
bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike.

A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke.

+1

Except that it is not true. Tooling and machinery to make proprietary
hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap,
--nor necessary, nor even of any identifiable advantage except for
branding purposes. There's not even a noteworthy artistic payoff,
since the result is just a mass-produced-in-Taiwan/China frame.


But a hydro-formed aluminium alloy frame bicycle can be kawaii:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/4482962084/in/set-72157623625852391/.

The frame is not sold separately, but if it was, I would expect it to be
$200 to 300 or so.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Jan 3, 12:34*pm, Chalo wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:

Duane Hébert wrote:

Chalo wrote:

A $3k carbon frame is a very expensive plastic waffle from a very
expensive mold.

I'm not sure I agree here but I'm not at the level where I would
appreciate the differences in a 3k carbon frame. *But I got a complete
bike for $2k that was cheaper than a similar steel bike.

A $3k aluminum frame, if there is one, is a practical joke.

+1

Except that it is not true. *Tooling and machinery to make proprietary
hydroformed aluminum tubing are not cheap,

--nor necessary, nor even of any identifiable advantage except for
branding purposes. *There's not even a noteworthy artistic payoff,
since the result is just a mass-produced-in-Taiwan/China frame.

No lugs are used, but dynafiling,

As opposed to careful hand filing, just sayin'.

clean up

What clean up? *There's no flux, no slag, no corrosive residue on a
freshly welded aluminum frame. *If the weld was a little spattery, you
wire brush it. *Otherwise it goes straight in the tank for chromate
conversion coating, or if you're cutting corners it goes straight to
the paint booth. *You can file the welds for cosmetics, but that's not
rocket surgery.

I have owned a lot of Cannondales since the '80s. *I recognize that
those frames are not nearly as crude as what's on the peg at Nashbar
or Walmart-- but they're still not the sort of handmade essentially
Victorian artifact that a lugged steel frame is. *A nicely
sophisticated aluminum frame should cost several hundred dollars
rather than a hundred or two. *I paid $600 for my 68.5cm C'dale
touring frameset in 1991. *It has been more than worth it for me. *It
was also a *big* fat margin for C'dale.

Calfee and others make
custom CF which does not involve popping out waffles,

More like papier-mâché with paper towel rolls.

but even some of
the waffles represent expensive and complicated (and proprietary)
processes.

I used to make hand laid fiberglass vacuum-pressure injection molded
electric motor-generator armatures capable of handling 300kW. *(Looked
like a straw boater two feet in diameter.) *Those were expensive and
complicated compared to a bike frame. *In this case, "proprietary"
means we don't actually know how nicely or crudely they are made.
Given how very similar the expensive stuff is to the cheap stuff in
terms of weight and observable properties, I can only think that
"proprietary" ain't all that.

In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.

You're suggesting that because you can knit at home, a handmade
sweater is worth no more than a mass-produced t-shirt? *Or are you
suggesting that a plastic bag is better because you can't make one at
home?

I've owned a half dozen beautiful, custom made steel frames. I
understand the art part, but I guess I've turned cheap, and the art
does not matter to me anymore. Sniff, sniff. I've lost the art!

And yes, I would rather have a Turbo than a hand stretched Brooks. I
would rather have my cookie-cutter Cannondale than any of my steel
frames -- which were olde-tyme SP and 531 boat anchors. In a 63cm
frame, that fattie aluminum makes a real difference. (caveat: I have
never owned a "modern steel" bike -- they may be better than
anything!)

Maybe if I drew some lugs on my Cannondale with a Sharpie, I could
revive the old excitement of owning a custom steel bike. I still
oggle the Vanillas and other custom bikes I see here in PDX (there is
a custom frame builder under every-other rock in this town), but I no
longer get those pangs of "must . . . own . . . bike." It's more like
"must . . . put kid . . . through college." -- Jay Beattie.

Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 1/3/2011 11:54 AM, Chalo Colina wrote:
That isn't just an assumption; it is observable, measurable fact. If
you think there is any other factor besides bike fit that has as big
an effect on ride comfort as tire size and pressure, you are simply
mistaken.[...]

Er, suspension?


Do those Brooks saddles with the large coil springs count as suspension
or a comfy chair?

JS.

On 1/3/2011 8:17 PM, James StewarD wrote:
Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 1/3/2011 11:54 AM, Chalo Colina wrote:
That isn't just an assumption; it is observable, measurable fact. If
you think there is any other factor besides bike fit that has as big
an effect on ride comfort as tire size and pressure, you are simply
mistaken.[...]

Er, suspension?


Do those Brooks saddles with the large coil springs count as suspension
or a comfy chair?

JS.

This is a cycling comfy chair:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/1939606083/in/set-72157619269233805/.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.