Someone from Australia has been lying to me

On Feb 5, 4:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 5, 6:29 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



I want to emphasize that I do not disagree with Frank in terms of
needing to -- and lawfully being able to -- take the road some times.
We may disagree over where or for how long, but I'm not sure how much
we disagree because I don't know what the roads look like where he
rides.

I do know what the roads look like where you ride, of course. I've
ridden some of them. Not only downtown (mostly NW and NE) but between
Hillsboro and downtown, around other suburbs, and along the Columbia
out to the coast. And is it Sauvie Island that's a few miles
downstream? Did that too.

There's not a tremendous difference in our roads. Except we're mostly
free of special bike facilities.


It's a difference in approach. (Hall monitor.)



Now, my story from about two hours ago. It is a beautiful day, balmy
for this time of year with lots of sunshine, so my buddy and I take
off for maybe a 40-50 mile ride around the Tualatin Valley.http://www.flickr.com/photos/pseudomally/154578815/

We're riding home through a suburban shopping area over bad and busy
road (inevitable result of expansion in to former agricultural area),
when my friend takes the lane to line up to cross a nasty set of
bicycle-eating train tracks that run at a shallow angle to the lane.
I'm two bike lengths behind getting ready to move out when this
asshole in a pick-up -- on a cell phone -- practically pushes me off
the road and almost runs over my friend. I'm yelling at this guy --
some punk kid, probably already on probation for something -- starts
yelling at me, telling me that we can't be in the lane. I f****** go
ballistic -- I mean really, what would Frank say. This guy is stopped
in traffic, making like he's going to unfasten his seat belt and get
out, etc., etc. My friend, who was about run down, came over and
pulled me away. Amazingly, the guy apologized to my friend but kept
yelling at me about what I am supposed to be doing on a bike. He got
strangely sheepish at the end, after I started yelling statutes at
him. I think he thought I was a cop or parole officer or something.

It might be that I'd be as mad as you, although I don't tend to go
ballistic. Maybe it's from years of dealing with young kids in
classrooms, but when I choose to talk to an idiot motorist, I tend to
be stern but controlled. I've been loud enough to talk over a punk,
but saying, e.g., "Let's call a cop, OK? Let's call a cop. Do you
want to call a cop and see who's right?"

Many years ago, I recall one guy who passed me close despite my being
mid-lane in a narrow lane, and despite the red light just 50 feet on.
I got within earshot of his open window and said "That was really
rude." He began yelling and pretending that he was going to come at
me, actually getting out of the car. I stood there slowly shaking my
head, with one hand hidden on the Halt dog repellent. I read his
license plate number to him. He eventually backed down, and I said to
his kids in the back seat, "Don't be like your dad when you grow up,
OK?" It was intense, and I had gallons of adrenaline pumping, but I
think I probably _looked_ reasonably calm.

OTOH, I've been with cyclists who reacted differently. On one club
ride, about 15 of us were in the process of turning off a narrow 2-
lane residential collector into a residential side street when some
jerk blared his horn and tried to pass the whole line of us in the
left lane. One of our 5'4" women planted herself in front of him and
chewed him out fiercely, loud and long, blocking traffic completely.
It was kind of cool.

Anyway, the fundamental moral of the story is (1) most drivers don't
know the law and have no clue when bicycles can take the lane, (2) a
small percentage of drivers are homicidal maniacs who will run you
down regardless of whether you have a right to the lane, (3) even IF a
bicycle breaks a traffic law, that is not an excuse for assaulting/
murdering him or her, (4) always ride with people who are better than
you at controlling their tempers.

:-) Or, regarding #4, learn to control your own!

I agree completely on #3. I know that the number mentioned in #2 are
negligibly small, so I don't worry about getting killed. Note that
your guy was not actually a homicidal maniac. He was a bully who just
wanted to scare you.


But there's a *lot* of this hostility out there everywhere all the
time, and mix the right recipe of circumstances for any particular
bully's state of mind, and... (news at 11:00).

Regarding #1, the question really ought to be "What can we do about
their ignorance?"


Hey, I consistently say I totally appreciate the activists and
advocates that are trying to make things better for everybody, but
have you looked around lately? There's like a ka-jillion people out
there driving. (TM might have been on to something with mandatory
cycling experience to qualify for a driver's license.)

I'd greatly prefer that bike advocacy organizations worked on
educating motorists (as well as bicyclists) about our rights to the
road, rather than painting stripes or installing curbs to act as
"let's pretend" safeguards.


You can educate (please do) 'til you're blue in the face and there's
still going to be like a ka-jillion dickheads out there - until the US
car culture is a thing of the past. Meanwhile, separate facilities
allow Nervous Ned and Nellie to ride in relative comfort, and dickhead
drivers to have the part of the road all to themselves. Not the
ideal, but something.

On Feb 5, 6:05 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Feb 5, 6:29 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

I want to emphasize that I do not disagree with Frank in terms of
needing to -- and lawfully being able to -- take the road some times.
We may disagree over where or for how long, but I'm not sure how much
we disagree because I don't know what the roads look like where he
rides.

I do know what the roads look like where you ride, of course. I've
ridden some of them. Not only downtown (mostly NW and NE) but between
Hillsboro and downtown, around other suburbs, and along the Columbia
out to the coast. And is it Sauvie Island that's a few miles
downstream? Did that too.

There's not a tremendous difference in our roads. Except we're mostly
free of special bike facilities.

We don't have that much in the way of facilities, or even shoulders,
in many of the places you mention -- except NW and NE. South East has
all the bike avenues. Riding in Washington County (Hillsboro) can be
unfun. Sauvie Island is downstream and basically a bicycle circuit
with not a lot of local traffic, but with no bike lanes -- although
there are some signs about sharing the road, etc.



Now, my story from about two hours ago. It is a beautiful day, balmy
for this time of year with lots of sunshine, so my buddy and I take
off for maybe a 40-50 mile ride around the Tualatin Valley.http://www.flickr.com/photos/pseudomally/154578815/

We're riding home through a suburban shopping area over bad and busy
road (inevitable result of expansion in to former agricultural area),
when my friend takes the lane to line up to cross a nasty set of
bicycle-eating train tracks that run at a shallow angle to the lane.
I'm two bike lengths behind getting ready to move out when this
asshole in a pick-up -- on a cell phone -- practically pushes me off
the road and almost runs over my friend. I'm yelling at this guy --
some punk kid, probably already on probation for something -- starts
yelling at me, telling me that we can't be in the lane. I f****** go
ballistic -- I mean really, what would Frank say. This guy is stopped
in traffic, making like he's going to unfasten his seat belt and get
out, etc., etc. My friend, who was about run down, came over and
pulled me away. Amazingly, the guy apologized to my friend but kept
yelling at me about what I am supposed to be doing on a bike. He got
strangely sheepish at the end, after I started yelling statutes at
him. I think he thought I was a cop or parole officer or something.

It might be that I'd be as mad as you, although I don't tend to go
ballistic. Maybe it's from years of dealing with young kids in
classrooms, but when I choose to talk to an idiot motorist, I tend to
be stern but controlled. I've been loud enough to talk over a punk,
but saying, e.g., "Let's call a cop, OK? Let's call a cop. Do you
want to call a cop and see who's right?"

Many years ago, I recall one guy who passed me close despite my being
mid-lane in a narrow lane, and despite the red light just 50 feet on.
I got within earshot of his open window and said "That was really
rude." He began yelling and pretending that he was going to come at
me, actually getting out of the car. I stood there slowly shaking my
head, with one hand hidden on the Halt dog repellent. I read his
license plate number to him. He eventually backed down, and I said to
his kids in the back seat, "Don't be like your dad when you grow up,
OK?" It was intense, and I had gallons of adrenaline pumping, but I
think I probably _looked_ reasonably calm.

OTOH, I've been with cyclists who reacted differently. On one club
ride, about 15 of us were in the process of turning off a narrow 2-
lane residential collector into a residential side street when some
jerk blared his horn and tried to pass the whole line of us in the
left lane. One of our 5'4" women planted herself in front of him and
chewed him out fiercely, loud and long, blocking traffic completely.
It was kind of cool.

Anyway, the fundamental moral of the story is (1) most drivers don't
know the law and have no clue when bicycles can take the lane, (2) a
small percentage of drivers are homicidal maniacs who will run you
down regardless of whether you have a right to the lane, (3) even IF a
bicycle breaks a traffic law, that is not an excuse for assaulting/
murdering him or her, (4) always ride with people who are better than
you at controlling their tempers.

:-) Or, regarding #4, learn to control your own!

I agree completely on #3. I know that the number mentioned in #2 are
negligibly small, so I don't worry about getting killed. Note that
your guy was not actually a homicidal maniac. He was a bully who just
wanted to scare you.

Regarding #1, the question really ought to be "What can we do about
their ignorance?"

I'd greatly prefer that bike advocacy organizations worked on
educating motorists (as well as bicyclists) about our rights to the
road, rather than painting stripes or installing curbs to act as
"let's pretend" safeguards.

I agree in general, but I don't know how one would go about educating
the particular perpetrator in my story -- or if he is capable of
education, except as part of some probation agreement. You can also
educate people only to hear them say "f*** that!" I hear that from
both sides -- motorists and non-motorists, and forget about compliance
by the skateboarders. You can educate some people 'til the cows come
home with no change in behavior.

I like the part about calling the police for an answer, and I should
have gotten the guy's plate number -- which I have done in the past
and then done nothing about it. It turns in to a part time jihad, and
I like to reduce my work and non-work stress.


I like to check the plate, then tell them that that and five bucks
gets me their home address (don't know if it still does, but it used
to, and most of them seem to believe it).

I do think that some people benefit from education, though. I should
see what the BTA is up to. Maybe some signs on the inside or outside
of mass transit would be good, and some signs downtown indicating when
and where bicyclists/skateboarders can or can't be on the sidewalk
(and can't in any event exceed the speed of pedestrian traffic).

On Feb 5, 10:34*pm, Dan O wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
*Note that
your guy was not actually a homicidal maniac. *He was a bully who just
wanted to scare you.

But there's a *lot* of this hostility out there everywhere all the
time, and mix the right recipe of circumstances for any particular
bully's state of mind, and... (news at 11:00).

I also hang out on another discussion group, one where pretty much
everyone is a self-proclaimed vehicular cyclist. (It's more or less
part of the group charter.)

At one point, someone pointed out that so many NON-vehicular cyclists
have so much difficulty, say riding sucks, talk about hostility, have
near misses, etc. Yet the VCs rarely seem to have those problems. Go
figure.

I'd greatly prefer that bike advocacy organizations worked on
educating motorists (as well as bicyclists) about our rights to the
road, rather than painting stripes or installing curbs to act as
"let's pretend" safeguards.

You can educate (please do) 'til you're blue in the face and there's
still going to be like a ka-jillion dickheads out there - until the US
car culture is a thing of the past.

Look at drunk driving. Until about 1985 or so, it was something most
drinkers worried about only from a "hope I don't get caught"
standpoint. Now it's much more of a social taboo. You certainly don't
brag about it - unless your friends are real scum.

Look at smoking. Until about the late 1990s, anyone who complained
about cigarette smoke was seen as intolerant and trampling on smoker's
freedom. That's another tide that has turned.

Look at Europe. Much of it has laws that presume a motorist's guilt
if he harms a pedestrian or bicyclist. And as a result, motorists are
much more careful. It wasn't always that way. In some countries, it
wasn't that way ten years ago.

It's possible to make these changes. Green (or is it blue?) paint
isn't the only solution, and it's certainly not the best.

*Meanwhile, separate facilities
allow Nervous Ned and Nellie to ride in relative comfort, and dickhead
drivers to have the part of the road all to themselves. *Not the
ideal, but something.

And a separate section in the back of the bus used to keep blacks safe
from rednecks, right?

- Frank Krygowski

On Feb 5, 9:25 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 5, 10:34 pm, Dan O wrote:

On Feb 5, 4:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Note that
your guy was not actually a homicidal maniac. He was a bully who just
wanted to scare you.

But there's a *lot* of this hostility out there everywhere all the
time, and mix the right recipe of circumstances for any particular
bully's state of mind, and... (news at 11:00).

I also hang out on another discussion group, one where pretty much
everyone is a self-proclaimed vehicular cyclist. (It's more or less
part of the group charter.)

At one point, someone pointed out that so many NON-vehicular cyclists
have so much difficulty, say riding sucks, talk about hostility, have
near misses, etc. Yet the VCs rarely seem to have those problems. Go
figure.


"Riding sucks"?

I'd greatly prefer that bike advocacy organizations worked on
educating motorists (as well as bicyclists) about our rights to the
road, rather than painting stripes or installing curbs to act as
"let's pretend" safeguards.

You can educate (please do) 'til you're blue in the face and there's
still going to be like a ka-jillion dickheads out there - until the US
car culture is a thing of the past.

Look at drunk driving. Until about 1985 or so, it was something most
drinkers worried about only from a "hope I don't get caught"
standpoint. Now it's much more of a social taboo. You certainly don't
brag about it - unless your friends are real scum.


Shall I find you some links for the 11:00 news today?

Look at smoking. Until about the late 1990s, anyone who complained
about cigarette smoke was seen as intolerant and trampling on smoker's
freedom. That's another tide that has turned.


And yet, decades after everybody knows they're nothing if not coffin
nails, it's a *huge* public health problem.

Look at Europe. Much of it has laws that presume a motorist's guilt
if he harms a pedestrian or bicyclist. And as a result, motorists are
much more careful. It wasn't always that way. In some countries, it
wasn't that way ten years ago.


Yes. Let's look to Europe.

It's possible to make these changes. Green (or is it blue?) paint
isn't the only solution, and it's certainly not the best.

Meanwhile, separate facilities
allow Nervous Ned and Nellie to ride in relative comfort, and dickhead
drivers to have the part of the road all to themselves. Not the
ideal, but something.

And a separate section in the back of the bus used to keep blacks safe
from rednecks, right?


I don't think so. (That's some chip on your shoulder.)

And note that I did not say facilities keep anybody safe.

Shall we look to Europe? Is that about what I've been saying all
along? Facilities encourage more bicycling; more bicycling is what
will change the culture.

On Feb 6, 1:57*am, Dan O wrote:
On Feb 5, 9:25 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:


On Feb 5, 10:34 pm, Dan O wrote:

On Feb 5, 4:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
*Note that
your guy was not actually a homicidal maniac. *He was a bully who just
wanted to scare you.

But there's a *lot* of this hostility out there everywhere all the
time, and mix the right recipe of circumstances for any particular
bully's state of mind, and... (news at 11:00).

I also hang out on another discussion group, one where pretty much
everyone is a self-proclaimed vehicular cyclist. (It's more or less
part of the group charter.)

At one point, someone pointed out that so many NON-vehicular cyclists
have so much difficulty, say riding sucks, talk about hostility, have
near misses, etc. *Yet the VCs rarely seem to have those problems. *Go
figure.

"Riding sucks"?

Or maybe "Riding near cars sucks." How did you express it?

I'd greatly prefer that bike advocacy organizations worked on
educating motorists (as well as bicyclists) about our rights to the
road, rather than painting stripes or installing curbs to act as
"let's pretend" safeguards.

You can educate (please do) 'til you're blue in the face and there's
still going to be like a ka-jillion dickheads out there - until the US
car culture is a thing of the past.

Look at drunk driving. *Until about 1985 or so, it was something most
drinkers worried about only from a "hope I don't get caught"
standpoint. *Now it's much more of a social taboo. You certainly don't
brag about it - unless your friends are real scum.

Shall I find you some links for the 11:00 news today?

Try finding some data on trends in drunken driving.


Look at smoking. *Until about the late 1990s, anyone who complained
about cigarette smoke was seen as intolerant and trampling on smoker's
freedom. *That's another tide that has turned.

And yet, decades after everybody knows they're nothing if not coffin
nails, it's a *huge* public health problem.

Try finding the dates that smoking was first prohibited in public
places.


Look at Europe. *Much of it has laws that presume a motorist's guilt
if he harms a pedestrian or bicyclist. *And as a result, motorists are
much more careful. *It wasn't always that way. *In some countries, it
wasn't that way ten years ago.

Yes. *Let's look to Europe.

It's possible to make these changes. *Green (or is it blue?) paint
isn't the only solution, and it's certainly not the best.

*Meanwhile, separate facilities
allow Nervous Ned and Nellie to ride in relative comfort, and dickhead
drivers to have the part of the road all to themselves. *Not the
ideal, but something.

And a separate section in the back of the bus used to keep blacks safe
from rednecks, right?

I don't think so. *(That's some chip on your shoulder.)

And note that I did not say facilities keep anybody safe.

But you want them put in anyway.

Shall we look to Europe? *Is that about what I've been saying all
along? *Facilities encourage more bicycling; more bicycling is what
will change the culture.

Europe's cycling levels are not due only to bike facilities. First,
special bike facilities are far from everywhere, despite what you may
think. Yet cycling is much more common even where there are no
facilities. But more important, there are many other differences
between typical European and American cities and cultures.

Over there, getting a driver's license tends to be difficult and
expensive, with tons of training and expense required. Here, Mom
teaches Johnnie to drive in two weeks.

Over there, public transportation is much more common and much higher
quality. Partly because of that, I've known Europeans in their 20s
who never bothered to get a driver's license. Here, a high school kid
usually can't get to his part-time McDonald's job without a license -
or at least, that's what he thinks.

Over there, gas costs about two to three times as much as here.
Insurance is more expensive too. So are cars in general. So is
parking. They don't put down acres (or hectares) of asphalt just in
case a lot of shoppers show up once a year and want free parking.

Their cities are more compact, built for walking and perhaps horse-
drawn carriages. If you're going only a mile, a bike makes much more
sense. Ours are spread out into endless, car-dependent suburbs.

In Europe, far more people live in apartments that are close to
commerce, rather than in American-style suburbs that are miles out in
the cornfields.

They've had continuous cultures of cycling, at least to a far greater
degree than we've had. Almost no Americans except kids rode bikes
until the mid-1970s.

And yes, there are lots of laws stating that motorists are assumed at
fault if they hurt a cyclist or pedestrian.

But American bike advocates seem to think that all that matters is
some green (or maybe blue?) paint on the road. "Why, if we just buy
100 gallons of green paint, we can make this place into Copenhagen!!!"

- Frank Krygowski

On Feb 6, 9:23 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:57 am, Dan O wrote:



On Feb 5, 9:25 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Feb 5, 10:34 pm, Dan O wrote:

On Feb 5, 4:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Note that
your guy was not actually a homicidal maniac. He was a bully who just
wanted to scare you.

But there's a *lot* of this hostility out there everywhere all the
time, and mix the right recipe of circumstances for any particular
bully's state of mind, and... (news at 11:00).

I also hang out on another discussion group, one where pretty much
everyone is a self-proclaimed vehicular cyclist. (It's more or less
part of the group charter.)

At one point, someone pointed out that so many NON-vehicular cyclists
have so much difficulty, say riding sucks, talk about hostility, have
near misses, etc. Yet the VCs rarely seem to have those problems. Go
figure.

"Riding sucks"?

Or maybe "Riding near cars sucks." How did you express it?


"Traffic sucks."

I'd greatly prefer that bike advocacy organizations worked on
educating motorists (as well as bicyclists) about our rights to the
road, rather than painting stripes or installing curbs to act as
"let's pretend" safeguards.

You can educate (please do) 'til you're blue in the face and there's
still going to be like a ka-jillion dickheads out there - until the US
car culture is a thing of the past.

Look at drunk driving. Until about 1985 or so, it was something most
drinkers worried about only from a "hope I don't get caught"
standpoint. Now it's much more of a social taboo. You certainly don't
brag about it - unless your friends are real scum.

Shall I find you some links for the 11:00 news today?

Try finding some data on trends in drunken driving.


Don't need to. It's easy to see anecdotally. I don't think it was
education, though. Rather, increased enforcement and penalties, "zero
tolerance", that sort of thing. Still a big problem, though.



Look at smoking. Until about the late 1990s, anyone who complained
about cigarette smoke was seen as intolerant and trampling on smoker's
freedom. That's another tide that has turned.

And yet, decades after everybody knows they're nothing if not coffin
nails, it's a *huge* public health problem.

Try finding the dates that smoking was first prohibited in public
places.


Don't need to (though had I wanted to, I was IT support for one of the
guys listed he http://nurseweb.ucsf.edu/www/resrch2.htm). I can
easily see the change myself anecdotally. (I was webmaster for a
County Health Dept and implemented their web-based complaint form for
violations.) Still a huge problem, though.





Look at Europe. Much of it has laws that presume a motorist's guilt
if he harms a pedestrian or bicyclist. And as a result, motorists are
much more careful. It wasn't always that way. In some countries, it
wasn't that way ten years ago.

Yes. Let's look to Europe.

It's possible to make these changes. Green (or is it blue?) paint
isn't the only solution, and it's certainly not the best.

Meanwhile, separate facilities
allow Nervous Ned and Nellie to ride in relative comfort, and dickhead
drivers to have the part of the road all to themselves. Not the
ideal, but something.

And a separate section in the back of the bus used to keep blacks safe
from rednecks, right?

I don't think so. (That's some chip on your shoulder.)

And note that I did not say facilities keep anybody safe.

But you want them put in anyway.


Yes, so that Nervous Ned and Nellie might get on bikes and ride, and
to show that the public infrastructure endorses bicycling as
transportation. Personally, for riding, I can take it or leave it.

Shall we look to Europe? Is that about what I've been saying all
along? Facilities encourage more bicycling; more bicycling is what
will change the culture.

Europe's cycling levels are not due only to bike facilities. First,
special bike facilities are far from everywhere, despite what you may
think. Yet cycling is much more common even where there are no
facilities. But more important, there are many other differences
between typical European and American cities and cultures.


Culture (isn't that what I said?)

Over there, getting a driver's license tends to be difficult and
expensive, with tons of training and expense required. Here, Mom
teaches Johnnie to drive in two weeks.

Over there, public transportation is much more common and much higher
quality. Partly because of that, I've known Europeans in their 20s
who never bothered to get a driver's license. Here, a high school kid
usually can't get to his part-time McDonald's job without a license -
or at least, that's what he thinks.

Over there, gas costs about two to three times as much as here.
Insurance is more expensive too. So are cars in general. So is
parking. They don't put down acres (or hectares) of asphalt just in
case a lot of shoppers show up once a year and want free parking.

Their cities are more compact, built for walking and perhaps horse-
drawn carriages. If you're going only a mile, a bike makes much more
sense. Ours are spread out into endless, car-dependent suburbs.

In Europe, far more people live in apartments that are close to
commerce, rather than in American-style suburbs that are miles out in
the cornfields.

They've had continuous cultures of cycling, at least to a far greater
degree than we've had. Almost no Americans except kids rode bikes
until the mid-1970s.

And yes, there are lots of laws stating that motorists are assumed at
fault if they hurt a cyclist or pedestrian.

But American bike advocates seem to think that all that matters is
some green (or maybe blue?) paint on the road. "Why, if we just buy
100 gallons of green paint, we can make this place into Copenhagen!!!"


Facilities encourage more bicycling; more bicycling will change the
culture.

On Feb 6, 9:23*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 6, 1:57*am, Dan O wrote:





On Feb 5, 9:25 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Feb 5, 10:34 pm, Dan O wrote:

On Feb 5, 4:42 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
*Note that
your guy was not actually a homicidal maniac. *He was a bully who just
wanted to scare you.

But there's a *lot* of this hostility out there everywhere all the
time, and mix the right recipe of circumstances for any particular
bully's state of mind, and... (news at 11:00).

I also hang out on another discussion group, one where pretty much
everyone is a self-proclaimed vehicular cyclist. (It's more or less
part of the group charter.)

At one point, someone pointed out that so many NON-vehicular cyclists
have so much difficulty, say riding sucks, talk about hostility, have
near misses, etc. *Yet the VCs rarely seem to have those problems. *Go
figure.

"Riding sucks"?

Or maybe "Riding near cars sucks." *How did you express it?

I'd greatly prefer that bike advocacy organizations worked on
educating motorists (as well as bicyclists) about our rights to the
road, rather than painting stripes or installing curbs to act as
"let's pretend" safeguards.

You can educate (please do) 'til you're blue in the face and there's
still going to be like a ka-jillion dickheads out there - until the US
car culture is a thing of the past.

Look at drunk driving. *Until about 1985 or so, it was something most
drinkers worried about only from a "hope I don't get caught"
standpoint. *Now it's much more of a social taboo. You certainly don't
brag about it - unless your friends are real scum.

Shall I find you some links for the 11:00 news today?

Try finding some data on trends in drunken driving.



Look at smoking. *Until about the late 1990s, anyone who complained
about cigarette smoke was seen as intolerant and trampling on smoker's
freedom. *That's another tide that has turned.

And yet, decades after everybody knows they're nothing if not coffin
nails, it's a *huge* public health problem.

Try finding the dates that smoking was first prohibited in public
places.







Look at Europe. *Much of it has laws that presume a motorist's guilt
if he harms a pedestrian or bicyclist. *And as a result, motorists are
much more careful. *It wasn't always that way. *In some countries, it
wasn't that way ten years ago.

Yes. *Let's look to Europe.

It's possible to make these changes. *Green (or is it blue?) paint
isn't the only solution, and it's certainly not the best.

*Meanwhile, separate facilities
allow Nervous Ned and Nellie to ride in relative comfort, and dickhead
drivers to have the part of the road all to themselves. *Not the
ideal, but something.

And a separate section in the back of the bus used to keep blacks safe
from rednecks, right?

I don't think so. *(That's some chip on your shoulder.)

And note that I did not say facilities keep anybody safe.

But you want them put in anyway.

Shall we look to Europe? *Is that about what I've been saying all
along? *Facilities encourage more bicycling; more bicycling is what
will change the culture.

Europe's cycling levels are not due only to bike facilities. *First,
special bike facilities are far from everywhere, despite what you may
think. *Yet cycling is much more common even where there are no
facilities. *But more important, there are many other differences
between typical European and American cities and cultures.

Over there, getting a driver's license tends to be difficult and
expensive, with tons of training and expense required. *Here, Mom
teaches Johnnie to drive in two weeks.

Over there, public transportation is much more common and much higher
quality. *Partly because of that, I've known Europeans in their 20s
who never bothered to get a driver's license. *Here, a high school kid
usually can't get to his part-time McDonald's job without a license -
or at least, that's what he thinks.

Over there, gas costs about two to three times as much as here.
Insurance is more expensive too. *So are cars in general. *So is
parking. *They don't put down acres (or hectares) of asphalt just in
case a lot of shoppers show up once a year and want free parking.

Their cities are more compact, built for walking and perhaps horse-
drawn carriages. *If you're going only a mile, a bike makes much more
sense. *Ours are spread out into endless, car-dependent suburbs.

In Europe, far more people live in apartments that are close to
commerce, rather than in American-style suburbs that are miles out in
the cornfields.

They've had continuous cultures of cycling, at least to a far greater
degree than we've had. *Almost no Americans except kids rode bikes
until the mid-1970s.

And yes, there are lots of laws stating that motorists are assumed at
fault if they hurt a cyclist or pedestrian.

But American bike advocates seem to think that all that matters is
some green (or maybe blue?) paint on the road. *"Why, if we just buy
100 gallons of green paint, we can make this place into Copenhagen!!!"

100 gallons of green paint and a steam roller -- the highest point in
Denmark is 561 feet, and it looks like the elevation gain from top to
bottom is about 50 feet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B8lleh%C3%B8j

I could switch to a 11/12/12/12/13/13/13/14/15 9sp cluster. Go out
and crush the Danish peaks!

But don't underestimate the attractiveness of facilities to some
riders, particularly in flat urban areas. I actually know people who
ride because of the facilities. Personally, I don't like most of them
-- particularly anything with the designation "cycletrack."

The best part of my commute is a de facto bicycle facility -- a
cemetery where the owners have reached a deal with local cyclists to
allow access. Lots of people use this route, but I don't see many
people on 50lb bakery delivery bikes ala Copenhagen and Denmark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P93ByXEaIfw (I go up and not down --
it looks kind of forlorn in winter).

-- Jay Beattie.

On Feb 6, 5:04*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

But don't underestimate the attractiveness of facilities to some
riders, particularly in flat urban areas. *I actually know people who
ride because of the facilities.

Oh, I'm sure they exist. But I suspect that those are people who
would have ridden without facilities, if for years they'd been taught
"Look, bicycling is actually quite safe" instead of being taught "You
NEED separate facilities to stay alive!!!"

- Frank Krygowski

On Feb 6, 3:09 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 6, 5:04 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



But don't underestimate the attractiveness of facilities to some
riders, particularly in flat urban areas. I actually know people who
ride because of the facilities.

Oh, I'm sure they exist. But I suspect that those are people who
would have ridden without facilities, if for years they'd been taught
"Look, bicycling is actually quite safe" instead of being taught "You
NEED separate facilities to stay alive!!!"


I'll bet I could find countless examples of the former. Please cite
*any* example of the latter.

On 2/3/2012 11:14 AM, thirty-six wrote:
On Feb 3, 2:11 pm, wrote:

Generally though, if there are bike lanes that force you into a door
zone, you should complain about it.

In UK we, of sensibility, ignore silly rules. What you do in your own
home is no-ones elses business and do unto others what you will have
done unto your own self generally works well as a basic understanding
of the phsychology around the world. "Laws" etc are made to control
only the people which misunderstand the two basic principles.

My tax money pays for bike lanes and if they're dangerous, I'm going to
bitch about them.