THE LOGIC OF TRIKES an outsider's viewpoint by Andre Jute

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

It's not. My first sketch design was 5ft/1520mm wide. I described in a
reply to Trevor how dangerous that would be on my favourite lanes --
too wide. I'd be in the ditch in the sowing, silage and harvest
seasons more often than I'd be on the road. Tilting is one way of
making a utility bike which is also narrow enough to be useful perform
acceptably.

The comedian Jute doesn't realise that many people have been doing more than
just bull**** about designing trikes, but actually making them and evolving
their designs. One notable thing is that tracks have been getting narrower,
not wider - the wide ones are still there, but people are offering narrower
ones for increased convenience.

If he'd ever ridden one of these beasts, he'd also know that his tilting
theory is gibberish - the trikes corner brilliantly as is - sharp,
idiot-proof handling.

On Jun 4, 9:12 pm, someone wrote:
snip
On your figure 8, tilt the payload, represented by the central
upright. The wheels tilt, pulled by the links.

Reset to level. Tilt the payload, represented the other way The wheels
tilt, pulled by the links.

That's it, a tilting suspension. All the rest is detail and compromise
to make it work in the real world.

How do you locate the angle of tilt? And where does the energy come
frome to lift the rider back up?

Same place it comes from on your bicycle, steering. Pull the steering
a little harder than the current degree of tilt can counter and the
centrifugal force of the turn overcomes the centripetal force of the
tilt thereby righting the vehicle. This assumes the front wheels are
not at their limit of adhesion, but if you are riding that hard then
you're a twitch away from a crash anyway. I have built trikes like
this, except with a brake that held the vehicle upright at low speeds
until the vehicle was going fast enough to balance and to allow
loading cargo while parked. The vehicle turned out to be impractical
but not because it was a tilting trike.

On Jun 5, 7:46*pm, Opus wrote:
On Jun 4, 9:12 pm, someone wrote:

snip
On your figure 8, tilt the payload, represented by the central
upright. The wheels tilt, pulled by the links.

Reset to level. Tilt the payload, represented the other way The wheels
tilt, pulled by the links.

That's it, a tilting suspension. All the rest is detail and compromise
to make it work in the real world.

How do you locate the angle of tilt? *And where does the energy come
frome to lift the rider back up?

Same place it comes from on your bicycle, steering. Pull the steering
a little harder than the current degree of tilt can counter and the
centrifugal force of the turn overcomes the centripetal force of the
tilt thereby righting the vehicle. This assumes the front wheels are
not at their limit of adhesion, but if you are riding that hard then
you're a twitch away from a crash anyway. I have built trikes like
this, except with a brake that held the vehicle upright at low speeds
until the vehicle was going fast enough to balance and to allow
loading cargo while parked. The vehicle turned out to be impractical
but not because it was a tilting trike.

Why was the trike impractical?

Did you find the tilting to be an advantage for any purpose?

Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.

"Bernhard Agthe" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Edward Dolan wrote:
Andre Jute is a crackpot. Can't you tell the type when you see it? He
only
...

When I read his posts I see a lot of myself in them (at least myself when
I try to be self-critical). I do know that I've eaten wisdom by the
spoonful and that reality always warps to fit my view of it ;-) Oh,
actually, all people must bend to my opinion ;-) So what I write is always
well-thought-through and anybody who contradicts me is a "crackpot" ;-)

It's just, it doesn't work that way - and I find that very hard to accept.
So I do try to allow for other people's opinion, even if it contradicts
mine. It's just very hard for me to put that in words, so I may seem
"militant" even if I don't mean to be.

If you get my meaning...

Andre Jute's thinking and theories are crackpot. I used to work on a
psychiatric ward when I was in the Navy, so I recognize his type when I
encounter it, however briefly.

Andre Jute has all the coherency of the certifiably insane and he should
be in a lunatic asylum. His dumb ass is not even worth kicking.

Actually, I also see the same tendency in you, it's just you voice it
differently, so that it's much easier to accept your style than Andre's -
you just exaggerate while Andre doesn't. You often are funny, while Andre
stays earnest - and thus seems much more explicit than you do...

Again, if you get my meaning...

But I am not serious and he is. That makes all the difference.

And most people here are old enough (and have a well-enough position in
life) to just express their opinion as it is, while I still have to accept
other people's ;-) In some years maybe I'll sound like one of you? And get
bashed by the other one ;-)

Live and let live ;-)

Yes, Usenet was invented to drive all of us stark raving mad. If you aren't
laughing at the insanity of it, then you have missed the essence of it.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
[...]
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.

Ask your psychiatrist if you should be running free on the streets. Are you
taking your meds? It was a colossal mistake when the state got out of the
business of housing lunatics like you in insane asylums.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On 5 June, 19:46, Opus wrote:

That's it, a tilting suspension. All the rest is detail and compromise
to make it work in the real world.

How do you locate the angle of tilt? *And where does the energy come
frome to lift the rider back up?

Same place it comes from on your bicycle, steering. Pull the steering
a little harder than the current degree of tilt can counter and the
centrifugal force of the turn overcomes the centripetal force of the
tilt thereby righting the vehicle. This assumes the front wheels are
not at their limit of adhesion, but if you are riding that hard then
you're a twitch away from a crash anyway. I have built trikes like
this, except with a brake that held the vehicle upright at low speeds
until the vehicle was going fast enough to balance and to allow
loading cargo while parked. The vehicle turned out to be impractical
but not because it was a tilting trike.

This topic has continued to run because of the desire to go as fast on
a trike as a bicycle if not perhaps a wee bit quicker. The limitation
on speed of a human powered vehicle is primarily in the bends. To get
round the bends quicker makes all riding quicker. I certainly dont
like the idea I should go a little slower so that I can right myself
by reducing my turn radius. I am accustomed to being able to ride
bicycle and drive motor car to the limits of adhesion. Once the
feeling of cornering response near the limit is learnt it is difficult
to ignore its benefits. Your righting technique prevents the learning
of the vehicle response at the limit point.

On Jun 5, 8:28 pm, Andre Jute wrote:
snip
Why was the trike impractical?

Did you find the tilting to be an advantage for any purpose?

Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.

The main reason the trike was impractical was there was no place to
use for cargo storage or way to hang panniers on it. As for the
tilting it allowed me to use normal bike hubs without inducing side
loadings and also allowed a narrower track that let the vehicle go
through places almost as well as a single track vehicle, but by
locking the tilt brake I eliminated the danger of falling over. In
retrospect I could have eliminated the complexity of the tilt brake by
using stops to prevent the vehicle from falling over and gotten 90% of
the benefit of the layout with 50% of the complexity.

On Jun 5, 10:28 pm, someone wrote:
snip
This topic has continued to run because of the desire to go as fast on
a trike as a bicycle if not perhaps a wee bit quicker. The limitation
on speed of a human powered vehicle is primarily in the bends. To get
round the bends quicker makes all riding quicker. I certainly dont
like the idea I should go a little slower so that I can right myself
by reducing my turn radius. I am accustomed to being able to ride
bicycle and drive motor car to the limits of adhesion. Once the
feeling of cornering response near the limit is learnt it is difficult
to ignore its benefits. Your righting technique prevents the learning
of the vehicle response at the limit point.

I know the vehicle response at the limits in this situation, front end
washout followed by a painful slide into whatever is beyond the edge
of the pavement. The advantage of the tilting tadpole was that the
vehicle could be kept upright (more or less) after the front end
traction was lost by the use of the tilting brake, at the expense of
adding some side loads to the front wheels and some complexity to the
controls and construction.

On Jun 6, 5:38*pm, Opus wrote:
On Jun 5, 8:28 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

snip
Why was the trike impractical?

Did you find the tilting to be an advantage for any purpose?

Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.

The main reason the trike was impractical was there was no place to
use for cargo storage or way to hang panniers on it. As for the
tilting it allowed me to use normal bike hubs without inducing side
loadings and also allowed a narrower track that let the vehicle go
through places almost as well as a single track vehicle, but by
locking the tilt brake I eliminated the danger of falling over. In
retrospect I could have eliminated the complexity of the tilt brake by
using stops to prevent the vehicle from falling over and gotten 90% of
the benefit of the layout with 50% of the complexity.

I had already planned angle-limiting by rubber bump-stops but was
wondering about a lockable disc to hold the thing upright at rest.

Was you tadpole the usual height and just narrower or did you sit
higher as well? My design sketch started putting on width and then
started leaning, so to speak, because i want to sit comfortably
upright at office chair height (say 15in off the ground).

It might be that the only place to use a really speedy tadpole is not
the public road but sand-sailing on a beach or in a desert in the wide
open spaces of North Africa or North America, as Bernhard suggested...

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html

On 6 June, 18:21, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jun 6, 5:38*pm, Opus wrote:



On Jun 5, 8:28 pm, Andre Jute wrote:

snip
Why was the trike impractical?

Did you find the tilting to be an advantage for any purpose?

Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.

The main reason the trike was impractical was there was no place to
use for cargo storage or way to hang panniers on it. As for the
tilting it allowed me to use normal bike hubs without inducing side
loadings and also allowed a narrower track that let the vehicle go
through places almost as well as a single track vehicle, but by
locking the tilt brake I eliminated the danger of falling over. In
retrospect I could have eliminated the complexity of the tilt brake by
using stops to prevent the vehicle from falling over and gotten 90% of
the benefit of the layout with 50% of the complexity.

I had already planned angle-limiting by rubber bump-stops but was
wondering about a lockable disc to hold the thing upright at rest.

Was you tadpole the usual height and just narrower or did you sit
higher as well? My design sketch started putting on width and then
started leaning, so to speak, because i want to sit comfortably
upright at office chair height (say 15in off the ground).

It might be that the only place to use a really speedy tadpole is not
the public road but sand-sailing on a beach or in a desert in the wide
open spaces of North Africa or North America, as Bernhard suggested...

Er, yes, come to think of it, its been done. Land racing yachts.
Some of these are leaning trikes, but very low as well.