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#31
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 28/09/2018 00:30, TMS320 wrote:
On 26/09/18 16:12, JNugent wrote: On 24/09/2018 20:14, TMS320 wrote: On 24/09/18 16:52, JNugent wrote: On 24/09/2018 08:54, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 23:53, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 17:23, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 16:34, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 11:23, wrote: Road.cc highlights a very salient piece of CCTV evidence in its piece. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman "Northcott’s barrister, Harry Bentley, said the coach driver was "desperately sorry" for Roman's death “and at times he has considered ending his own life because of it."" Expressing sympathy and remorse. That's what TMS320 calls "grovelling" (and treats it as an admission). If that view is widely shared, it can be little wonder that insurance companies instruct their polcyholders never to admit responsibility for collisions. It's necessary to wonder how much his sentence was reduced by this grovelling. (Compared to 18 months for Charlie Alliston for not grovelling - and the court seeming to accept that it was the victim that hadn't paid attention.) Alliston didn't express any remorse or sorrow. He even protested his own "innocence" and thw victim's "guilt" on the internet. I have no idea what he said on the internet (do you know his precise words?) You could easily have Googled it for yourself, but hey ho... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/14/cyclist-charlie-alliston-killed-pedestrian-blamed-crash-kim-briggs-court-told QUOTE: Charlie Alliston ... was said to be going nearly 20mph when he mowed down Kim Briggs as she crossed Old Street, east London, on 12 February last year. ... Alliston was riding a “fixie”, a fixed-gear track bicycle with no front brake, which is not legal on the road ... He allegedly shouted at Briggs to “get out of the way” twice before their heads smashed together. Briggs suffered brain injuries including two skull fractures and died a week later. After seeing a newspaper report about the incident, Alliston posted a comment online claiming he tried to warn her but she had “ignored” him and “stopped dead” in his path. He wrote: “I feel bad due to the seriousness of her injuries but I can put my hand up and say this is not my fault.” On an internet forum, he described how their heads collided and hers “ricocheted” into his. He wrote: “It is a pretty serious incident so I won’t bother saying she deserved it. It was her fault ...". He went on to claim Briggs had been on her mobile phone. He complained: “Everyone is quick to judge and help the so-called victim but not the other person in the situation. ENDQUOTE The mobile phone fabrication was shown to be an absolute lie. I hope this helps you. but it is worth a reminder that the victim created the conditions that demanded avoiding action. In normal circumstances, that wouldn't require remorse. I don't agree at all with that remark. But either way, Alliston showed no remorse. He blamed the victim for his offences. Pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (that is, once the charges and evidence have been made available and the strength of the prosecution case thereby known) and saving the Crown the expense of a trial is always taken into account as a mitigating factor. When did Alliston plead guilty? By any chance do you put posts you read through an English to Scouse translator, compose your replies in Scouse and translate them back to English before posting? If you came clean it would explain a great deal. a) The question I raised was about grovelling, not about admission of guilt. The "grovelling" you referred to was as effective an admission of guilt (in the form of a fairly extreme expression of remorse as well as an admission that he broke the rules on stop lines at traffic lights) as anyone could wish for, and certainly not designed as an effective line of defence. But did you think the driver literally prostrated himself in court, with his arms outstretched begging for mercy? Why would I? Because you used the word "grovelling" as opposed to "expressing *remorse" (which is not "grovelling"). Grovelling does not require prostration. It is an adequate word for the purpose. But not for the expression of remorse. So you prefer the word legal people use. Whatever. A road traffic collision is caused by behaviour before the collision, so it is hard to see how behaviour afterwards should have any bearing on the case. It speaks to the attitude of the cyclist towards other people, of course. Who knows... you might have had more evidence than was reported. b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. After he had effectively admitted the offence in his own evidence. I assume it was through cross-examination. If there is anything to "admit", is not possible for a defendant to simply change plea during the proceedings? Some offences are obvious and the defendant knows whether he is guilty (eg, burglary, assault, murder, cycling along a footway). *Others (such as "causing death by careless driving" are not so obvious or well-defined and it in the interest of a defendant to at least allow the prosecution to prove the facts and how the law *applies to them. This is particularly so with relatively new offences whose meaning is not something with which all members of the public are familiar. The inportant thing is to give truthful evidence and not to behave in court like the accused rider of a defective bicycle. (And how come his legal team failed to anticipate the prosecution line of questioning? Do they lose their fee?) I doubt they did fail to anticipate it. They may well have advised the NG plea and letting the Crown establish a case under relatively new and uncharted law. If running someone over that was visible ahead for 16 seconds isn't a clear case of dangerous driving then the law needs more than a bit of testing. You obviously know the case far better than do the police, the CPS, the trial judge and the jury. What are you suggesting I know that nobody else knows? You can read the press report containing the 16 second figure because it was linked on this newsgroup. Oh, and about your suggestion that they might have wanted to test the law. If so, do you think they would have told the defendant what their game was? Plead guilty and get it over with; plead not guilty and sit through the whole trial go through cross-examination. Testing the meaning and interpretation of new law (whether criminal or administrative law) is par for the course. You know that. Why don't you run round and tell them that they got it all wrong? I'll wait here for your report of how you get on. By way of contrast, the "young gentleman" on the brakeless bike blamed the victim and completely exonerated himself, praising his own skills to the skies and contrasting them sharply with the lack of skill on the part of the woman he killed. Some part says he was probably right. Are you such a part? Yes. Not quite the right word, I suspect, though getting there... Although your precis is bound to be as accurate as the way you always reply to a poster with a question using an unrelated collection of words. There's the difference, even if you don't want, and will refuse, to see and acknowledge it (which I confidently predict). I thought the courts were supposed to punish actions not opinions. The judge ran perilously close to judging the driver's opinions i the reported remarks. It was his carelessness (or otherwise) within the meaning of the law which was at issue. You're not agreeing with me. Let's hope the judge in Charlie Alliston's case was more concerned about technical (as in science) matters than you obsess about his personality. The central focus in the Alliston trial was the innocent victim. That and his deliberately dangerous behaviour (despite his assuarances to the court that it wasn't dangerous at all to cycle without brakes). Greasing up and slipping into reporting mode doesn't change your long stated obsession about his personality. I am not interested in the personality of criminals. As long as they stay on the right side of the law, they can pretend to be as damaged mentally as they like. |
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#32
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
JNugent wrote:
After seeing a newspaper report about the incident, Alliston posted a comment online claiming he tried to warn her but she had “ignored” him and “stopped dead” in his path. An experience to which all cyclists are accustomed. Y. -- john smith |MA (Hons)|MPhil (Hons)|CAPES (mention très bien)|LLB (Hons) 'It never gets any easier. You just get faster' (Greg LeMond (1961 - )) |
#33
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 9:15:03 PM UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 7:11:00 PM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote: b) The coach driver pleaded not guilty but was found guilty by a jury. Accord'n ter de Daily Mail. Let's put that straight now, shall we? QUOTE: The coach driver who killed London cyclist Karla Roman when he turned left across her path has been jailed for 15 months for causing her death by careless driving, reports the London Evening Standard (link is external). The court heard that Barry Northcott, who ***denied the charges*** (EMPHASIS MINE), only learnt that he had run her over when a passenger told him what had happened. https://road.cc/content/news/248771-...ed-karla-roman In other news, a bloke who should know better and is a role model to many youngsters wriggles out of driving at nearly SIXTY mph in a 40mph zone. Even "Mr Asshole", the lawyer to the celebrity lawbreakers said that the law was wrong. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...convicted.html |
#34
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 28/09/18 13:07, JNugent wrote:
On 28/09/2018 00:30, TMS320 wrote: On 26/09/18 16:12, JNugent wrote: On 24/09/2018 20:14, TMS320 wrote: On 24/09/18 16:52, JNugent wrote: On 24/09/2018 08:54, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 23:53, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote: Alliston didn't express any remorse or sorrow. He even protested his own "innocence" and thw victim's "guilt" on the internet. I have no idea what he said on the internet (do you know his precise words?) You could easily have Googled it for yourself, but hey ho... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/14/cyclist-charlie-alliston-killed-pedestrian-blamed-crash-kim-briggs-court-told QUOTE: Charlie Alliston ... was said to be going nearly 20mph when he mowed down Kim Briggs as she crossed Old Street, east London, on 12 February last year. ... Alliston was riding a “fixie”, a fixed-gear track bicycle with no front brake, which is not legal on the road ... He allegedly shouted at Briggs to “get out of the way” twice before their heads smashed together. Briggs suffered brain injuries including two skull fractures and died a week later. After seeing a newspaper report about the incident, Alliston posted a comment online claiming he tried to warn her but she had “ignored” him and “stopped dead” in his path. He wrote: “I feel bad due to the seriousness of her injuries but I can put my hand up and say this is not my fault.” On an internet forum, he described how their heads collided and hers “ricocheted” into his. He wrote: “It is a pretty serious incident so I won’t bother saying she deserved it. It was her fault ...". He went on to claim Briggs had been on her mobile phone. He complained: “Everyone is quick to judge and help the so-called victim but not the other person in the situation. ENDQUOTE The mobile phone fabrication was shown to be an absolute lie. It depends on whether he pursued this, knowing it was false or whether it was just a best assessment made in 3.8 seconds until shown the evidence. Apart from that, the only problem is saying a victim "deserves" it. But then, it is not an uncommon for motorists to say this. I hope this helps you. In other words your earlier post was the result of the usual Nugent mangling. but it is worth a reminder that the victim created the conditions that demanded avoiding action. In normal circumstances, that wouldn't require remorse. I don't agree at all with that remark. But either way, Alliston showed no remorse. He blamed the victim for his offences. I very much doubt he blamed her for making him use a bike without a front brake. Grovelling does not require prostration. It is an adequate word for the purpose. But not for the expression of remorse. So you prefer the word legal people use. Whatever. A road traffic collision is caused by behaviour before the collision, so it is hard to see how behaviour afterwards should have any bearing on the case. It speaks to the attitude of the cyclist towards other people, of course. Yes, it helps to fuel your prejudice. Oh, and about your suggestion that they might have wanted to test the law. If so, do you think they would have told the defendant what their game was? Plead guilty and get it over with; plead not guilty and sit through the whole trial go through cross-examination. Testing the meaning and interpretation of new law (whether criminal or administrative law) is par for the course. You know that. I asked for your opinion on whether the defendant would have gone through it voluntarily. I thought the courts were supposed to punish actions not opinions. The judge ran perilously close to judging the driver's opinions i the reported remarks. It was his carelessness (or otherwise) within the meaning of the law which was at issue. You're not agreeing with me. Let's hope the judge in Charlie Alliston's case was more concerned about technical (as in science) matters than you obsess about his personality. The central focus in the Alliston trial was the innocent victim. That and his deliberately dangerous behaviour (despite his assuarances to the court that it wasn't dangerous at all to cycle without brakes). Greasing up and slipping into reporting mode doesn't change your long stated obsession about his personality. I am not interested in the personality of criminals. As long as they stay on the right side of the law, they can pretend to be as damaged mentally as they like. Would you like to have some of your previous posts dredged up? |
#35
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 28/09/2018 20:39, TMS320 wrote:
On 28/09/18 13:07, JNugent wrote: On 28/09/2018 00:30, TMS320 wrote: On 26/09/18 16:12, JNugent wrote: On 24/09/2018 20:14, TMS320 wrote: On 24/09/18 16:52, JNugent wrote: On 24/09/2018 08:54, TMS320 wrote: On 23/09/18 23:53, JNugent wrote: On 23/09/2018 19:10, TMS320 wrote: Alliston didn't express any remorse or sorrow. He even protested his own "innocence" and thw victim's "guilt" on the internet. I have no idea what he said on the internet (do you know his precise words?) You could easily have Googled it for yourself, but hey ho... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/14/cyclist-charlie-alliston-killed-pedestrian-blamed-crash-kim-briggs-court-told QUOTE: Charlie Alliston ... was said to be going nearly 20mph when he mowed down Kim Briggs as she crossed Old Street, east London, on 12 February last year. ... Alliston was riding a “fixie”, a fixed-gear track bicycle with no front brake, which is not legal on the road ... He allegedly shouted at Briggs to “get out of the way” twice before their heads smashed together. Briggs suffered brain injuries including two skull fractures and died a week later. After seeing a newspaper report about the incident, Alliston posted a comment online claiming he tried to warn her but she had “ignored” him and “stopped dead” in his path. He wrote: “I feel bad due to the seriousness of her injuries but I can put my hand up and say this is not my fault.” On an internet forum, he described how their heads collided and hers “ricocheted” into his. He wrote: “It is a pretty serious incident so I won’t bother saying she deserved it. It was her fault ...". He went on to claim Briggs had been on her mobile phone. He complained: “Everyone is quick to judge and help the so-called victim but not the other person in the situation. ENDQUOTE The mobile phone fabrication was shown to be an absolute lie. It depends on whether he pursued this, knowing it was false or whether it was just a best assessment made in 3.8 seconds until shown the evidence. He was reported to have said it in his sworn or affirmed testimony in court. Apart from that, the only problem is saying a victim "deserves" it. But then, it is not an uncommon for motorists to say this. I hope this helps you. In other words your earlier post was the result of the usual Nugent mangling. Whatever you mean by that. BTW: You started on about the Alliston case. I only mentioned it in passing. but it is worth a reminder that the victim created the conditions that demanded avoiding action. In normal circumstances, that wouldn't require remorse. I don't agree at all with that remark. But either way, Alliston showed no remorse. He blamed the victim for his offences. I very much doubt he blamed her for making him use a bike without a front brake. He didn't even accept that that was an offence. Grovelling does not require prostration. It is an adequate word for the purpose. But not for the expression of remorse. So you prefer the word legal people use. Whatever. A road traffic collision is caused by behaviour before the collision, so it is hard to see how behaviour afterwards should have any bearing on the case. It speaks to the attitude of the cyclist towards other people, of course. Yes, it helps to fuel your prejudice. They're his words. What do they tell you about him? Nothing at all? Oh, and about your suggestion that they might have wanted to test the law. If so, do you think they would have told the defendant what their game was? Plead guilty and get it over with; plead not guilty and sit through the whole trial go through cross-examination. Testing the meaning and interpretation of new law (whether criminal or administrative law) is par for the course. You know that. I asked for your opinion on whether the defendant would have gone through it voluntarily. Which one are we talking about? The coach driver or the cyclist? I thought the courts were supposed to punish actions not opinions. The judge ran perilously close to judging the driver's opinions i the reported remarks. It was his carelessness (or otherwise) within the meaning of the law which was at issue. You're not agreeing with me. Let's hope the judge in Charlie Alliston's case was more concerned about technical (as in science) matters than you obsess about his personality. The central focus in the Alliston trial was the innocent victim. That and his deliberately dangerous behaviour (despite his assuarances to the court that it wasn't dangerous at all to cycle without brakes). Greasing up and slipping into reporting mode doesn't change your long stated obsession about his personality. I am not interested in the personality of criminals. As long as they stay on the right side of the law, they can pretend to be as damaged mentally as they like. Would you like to have some of your previous posts dredged up? Do as you like. I have nothing in particular against mentally-ill people as long as they don't ride their bikes into other people. |
#36
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 28/09/18 21:02, JNugent wrote:
On 28/09/2018 20:39, TMS320 wrote: On 28/09/18 13:07, JNugent wrote: On 28/09/2018 00:30, TMS320 wrote: He went on to claim Briggs had been on her mobile phone. He complained: “Everyone is quick to judge and help the so-called victim but not the other person in the situation. ENDQUOTE The mobile phone fabrication was shown to be an absolute lie. It depends on whether he pursued this, knowing it was false or whether it was just a best assessment made in 3.8 seconds until shown the evidence. He was reported to have said it in his sworn or affirmed testimony in court. You accused him of lying. I expect he would have been asked to describe the situation as he saw it. Apart from that, the only problem is saying a victim "deserves" it. But then, it is not an uncommon for motorists to say this. I hope this helps you. In other words your earlier post was the result of the usual Nugent mangling. Whatever you mean by that. BTW: You started on about the Alliston case. I only mentioned it in passing. Only as far as wondering how *grovelling* affects a sentence. You expanded on it. but it is worth a reminder that the victim created the conditions that demanded avoiding action. In normal circumstances, that wouldn't require remorse. I don't agree at all with that remark. But either way, Alliston showed no remorse. He blamed the victim for his offences. I very much doubt he blamed her for making him use a bike without a front brake. He didn't even accept that that was an offence. I expect defendants often don't understand the laws they are accused of breaking. It's not relevant to your demand that he should have shown remorse over the victim's behaviour. So you prefer the word legal people use. Whatever. A road traffic collision is caused by behaviour before the collision, so it is hard to see how behaviour afterwards should have any bearing on the case. It speaks to the attitude of the cyclist towards other people, of course. Yes, it helps to fuel your prejudice. They're his words. What do they tell you about him? Nothing at all? Almost nothing. Your reaction tells us more about you. Oh, and about your suggestion that they might have wanted to test the law. If so, do you think they would have told the defendant what their game was? Plead guilty and get it over with; plead not guilty and sit through the whole trial go through cross-examination. Testing the meaning and interpretation of new law (whether criminal or administrative law) is par for the course. You know that. I asked for your opinion on whether the defendant would have gone through it voluntarily. Which one are we talking about? The coach driver or the cyclist? For goodness' sake, don't be so thick. You raised the idea that the law likes to test a new law in court. To follow on I asked you whether the defendant would know about their involvement. Possible answers are yes, no, don't know. If the answer is no, further expansion would be useful. I am not interested in the personality of criminals. As long as they stay on the right side of the law, they can pretend to be as damaged mentally as they like. Would you like to have some of your previous posts dredged up? Do as you like. I have nothing in particular against mentally-ill people as long as they don't ride their bikes into other people. Some of us have something against those that only ever travel by car but try to be the "pedestrian's friend", constantly pointing their finger at anybody using a bicycle. I think Doug used to be fond of the word "hypocrite". |
#37
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Cycle box death judge gets it right for once
On 04/10/2018 12:45, TMS320 wrote:
On 28/09/18 21:02, JNugent wrote: On 28/09/2018 20:39, TMS320 wrote: On 28/09/18 13:07, JNugent wrote: On 28/09/2018 00:30, TMS320 wrote: He went on to claim Briggs had been on her mobile phone. He complained: “Everyone is quick to judge and help the so-called victim but not the other person in the situation. ENDQUOTE The mobile phone fabrication was shown to be an absolute lie. It depends on whether he pursued this, knowing it was false or whether it was just a best assessment made in 3.8 seconds until shown the evidence. He was reported to have said it in his sworn or affirmed testimony in court. You accused him of lying. I expect he would have been asked to describe the situation as he saw it. He did not see the victim use her phone. We know that because she wasn't using it - and it is trivially easy to check whether a phone has been used at a particular time. He didn't see her using it (she wasn't using it) so when he (at first) said that she was using it, he was lying. Which bit of that is too difficult for you to either understand or accept? [ ... ] Which one are we talking about? The coach driver or the cyclist? For goodness' sake, don't be so thick. You raised the idea that the law likes to test a new law in court. To follow on I asked you whether the defendant would know about their involvement. Possible answers are yes, no, don't know. If the answer is no, further expansion would be useful. What? "The law" does not "like" to test itself. That was a preposterous thing to say, even for you. Defendants are soimetimes to plead NG in order that the correct interpretation of a (new) law may be investigated by the court. That is all. I am not interested in the personality of criminals. As long as they stay on the right side of the law, they can pretend to be as damaged mentally as they like. Would you like to have some of your previous posts dredged up? Do as you like. I have nothing in particular against mentally-ill people as long as they don't ride their bikes into other people. Some of us have something against those that only ever travel by car but try to be the "pedestrian's friend", constantly pointing their finger at anybody using a bicycle. I think Doug used to be fond of the word "hypocrite". I am a pedestrian most of the time. It is interesting that you, by implication at least, do not regard yourself as a pedestrian and are readily prepared to take the side of errant cyclists against pedestrian victims in all circumstances. |
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