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Dry lube?



 
 
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  #51  
Old April 30th 18, 03:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:01:33 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/29/2018 10:03 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

Sounds great, except when I tried various home brew solvent carriers
last summer, it didn't quite work.


Of course you also believed that I could glue two halves of a broken
brake lever together.

Sometimes homebrew solutions are just not going to work and are more
costly then purchasing a mass produced product specifically designed for
a particular use.


And some times "homebrew" solutions do work. Iver Norman Lawson came
up with the water-displacing mixture after working at home, and turned
it over to the Rocket Chemical Company for the sum of $500, which
today (2018) is about $4,600.

Now they call it WD-40 and present revenues are in the neighborhood of
380.51 million annually.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #52  
Old April 30th 18, 03:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:03:10 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/29/2018 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms
wrote:
1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but
penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this.


Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please
adjust your terminology accordingly.


I suspect that you're not a lot of fun at parties.

Fine, "it penetrates into the spaces between the pins and rollers."


You must be talking about some sort of archaic chain as modern bicycle
chains have no contact between the pins and the rollers.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #53  
Old April 30th 18, 03:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 21:15:47 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/29/2018 12:24 PM, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 10:21 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:19:26 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
On 4/28/2018 1:30 AM,
wrote:

Stop, stop it is getting into a religion discussion already.

Can't stop. Can't stop. Worried that someone on the Internet will
believe Frank, as unlikely as that might seem to most people here.

Hmm, who do you want to believe long-time bicycle shop owners & expert
bicycle mechanics, chain experts, and Jobst, or Frank? Tough
decision--not.

What the Experts say About Chain Waxing:

"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown

For a good chain lube, that penetrates into the chain use PJ1.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AAGEF96
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UKH86Y
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GV978Y

"Features a foaming action that penetrates into the pins and rollers
Specially optimized for a standard non-O-ring chains"

For the record: Jobst didn't keep up with latest developments the last
10 years he was around, I disagreed with some of Sheldons statements
and Mike had als o some personal preferences and opinions.


Mike and Sheldon both worked at bicycle shops (Mike owns a shop) and if
they take the time to explain the issues with hot waxing I think they
are worth listening to. Jobst had a lot of opinions of course, but most
were based on facts and logic, something that trumps the emotional
feeling of hot waxing.

Of course the trend now appears to be to mix hot wax with some sort of
oil. Once the wax hardens and is displaced then at least the oil is
still providing lubrication, but the wax is not, and there's less oil
than if you just used oil alone.


sigh We really are in the post-truth era, aren't we?

Scharf [sms] gives us his product advertisements and his unproven
opinions. He praises those who agree with him as "all the experts."
There he is, staunch in his uninformed opinions.

Then there are the experiences of those of us who actually lubricate our
chains this way, and have done so for decades. We know it works - but
somehow that doesn't count.

And I've given links to test results - that is, real measured data that
verify what we users have been claiming. Scharf never gives measured
data to counter that. In fact, he never admits to reading it.

Try Velo Magazine, March 2013, pp. 62 - 64.
https://www.scribd.com/document/2620...ficiency-Tests

To quote the summary that follows the numerical results: " And for the
meticulous mechanic, happy to pull a chain off and re-wax it every few
weeks, cheap hardware store paraf?n is unbeatable." Unbeatable meant it
beat 54 other chain lubricants by delivering both highest efficiency and
longest chain life.

Here's some more, old enough that I had to scan the hardcopy, but still
valid:
https://flic.kr/p/dkUGq6
https://flic.kr/p/dkULS1

Again, comparing 11 different chain lubricants, paraffin delivered by
far the longest chain life. And that was extensive real world, on-road
testing.

Those tests were done using a hot bath for applying wax. I'm not that
diligent; I use a method which is probably not quite as good. But my
on-the-bike method is faster and more convenient, and still keeps the
bike and chain free of the black gunk that most other chain lubricants
generate.

I'm not saying anyone has to use wax. But I wish Scharf would quit
pretending there is no data that disproves his nonsense.



Is there some regulation in the U.S. that says a politician has to
tell the truth?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #54  
Old April 30th 18, 03:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:03:10 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/29/2018 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms
wrote:
1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but
penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this.


Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please
adjust your terminology accordingly.


I suspect that you're not a lot of fun at parties.


Probably true, but difficult to tell because nobody invites me to
parties any more. I probably wouldn't go because I usually spend the
evening cornered by people asking questions on how to fix their
computahs, cars, appliances, etc.

Fine, "it penetrates into the spaces between the pins and rollers."


Thank you. For a fleeting moment, I was wondering if your bicycle
chain was made from metal foam:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=metal+foam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_foam

Incidentally, if you want a better passive cooled heat sink, try
copper foam:
http://www.versarien-technologies.co.uk
https://www.mouser.com/new/versarien-technologies/versarien-lph-heat-sink/

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #55  
Old April 30th 18, 04:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Dry lube?

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:00:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:

How much heat do these water based systems develop. You talk about
welding .040" aluminum but could the same torch be used as a
replacement for a small oxy-acetylene system for general use. Welding,
brazing, etc?


Disclaimer: I are not an expert on hydrogen welding and have limited
experience in using a hydrogen-oxygen torch.

No, or at least not for welding anything big. The typical
electrolysis generator does not have the capacity to produce enough
gas volume to maintain the required flow rate. Worse, the theoretical
hydrogenxygen 2:1 ratio doesn't quite work because the torch works
best at 4:1. It's difficult to store enough gases for instant
availability because the hydrogen leaks rather badly and the oxygen
rots everything it touches. At best, it's good for running the tiny
torches that I mentioned:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hho+torch
Also, you can get more heat out of an acetylene oxygen mix than a
hydrogen and oxygen mix. That's beneficial when working with thin
aluminum and a tiny torch because it reduces the heat affected zone.
I've tried aluminum welding with my big oxy-acetylene torch on thick
aluminum cross sections. Thick pieces work, but I often destroy
anything that looks like aluminum sheet metal. I usually blow a hole
at the beginning of the bead, or produce something useless that looks
like corrugated metal roofing. Learn by Destroying(tm).

I forgot to mumble that you need to add NaOH (sodium hydroxide or lye)
to the (demineralized) water to make it sufficiently conductive so
that the electrolysis works. Also, a backfire arrestor is probably a
good idea.

HHO Welder video worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGz5X1hB3Nw (5:52)

If you want to go cheap with a very fine torch tip (using a syringe
tip), there's the ER50 Electrolyzer for about $400.
http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/store/browns-gas/er50-assembled-mini-browns-gas-electrolyzer
Video on how it's used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwPZoowQ-Rs
Small backfire at 28:30. Note that the maximum indicated torch
pressure on the gauge is 3 psi.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #56  
Old April 30th 18, 06:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,563
Default Dry lube?

On 30/04/18 04:00, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:03:10 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/29/2018 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms
wrote:
1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but
penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this.

Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please
adjust your terminology accordingly.


I suspect that you're not a lot of fun at parties.

Fine, "it penetrates into the spaces between the pins and rollers."


You must be talking about some sort of archaic chain as modern bicycle
chains have no contact between the pins and the rollers.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html


I thought that was the bit that wore?
  #57  
Old April 30th 18, 09:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Dry lube?

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 20:47:50 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:00:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:

How much heat do these water based systems develop. You talk about
welding .040" aluminum but could the same torch be used as a
replacement for a small oxy-acetylene system for general use. Welding,
brazing, etc?


Disclaimer: I are not an expert on hydrogen welding and have limited
experience in using a hydrogen-oxygen torch.

No, or at least not for welding anything big. The typical
electrolysis generator does not have the capacity to produce enough
gas volume to maintain the required flow rate. Worse, the theoretical
hydrogenxygen 2:1 ratio doesn't quite work because the torch works
best at 4:1. It's difficult to store enough gases for instant
availability because the hydrogen leaks rather badly and the oxygen
rots everything it touches. At best, it's good for running the tiny
torches that I mentioned:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=hho+torch
Also, you can get more heat out of an acetylene oxygen mix than a
hydrogen and oxygen mix. That's beneficial when working with thin
aluminum and a tiny torch because it reduces the heat affected zone.
I've tried aluminum welding with my big oxy-acetylene torch on thick
aluminum cross sections. Thick pieces work, but I often destroy
anything that looks like aluminum sheet metal. I usually blow a hole
at the beginning of the bead, or produce something useless that looks
like corrugated metal roofing. Learn by Destroying(tm).

I forgot to mumble that you need to add NaOH (sodium hydroxide or lye)
to the (demineralized) water to make it sufficiently conductive so
that the electrolysis works. Also, a backfire arrestor is probably a
good idea.

My thoughts were not to have to be forever messing with rental tanks.
I get half way through a job and the oxygen runs out or the fuel gas -
I am using LPG recently - expires and one has to run out and get some
more. When we were in Phuket that was nearly an 80 km round trip :-(

Gas welding aluminum is pretty much a lost art these days with the
availability of cheap TIG welding sets. I certified gas welding
aluminum in 1950 and never gas welded aluminum again :-) I seem to
remember that we gas welded aluminum using a flux which I'm not even
sure one can buy these days.



HHO Welder video worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGz5X1hB3Nw (5:52)

If you want to go cheap with a very fine torch tip (using a syringe
tip), there's the ER50 Electrolyzer for about $400.
http://www.eagle-research.com/cms/store/browns-gas/er50-assembled-mini-browns-gas-electrolyzer
Video on how it's used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwPZoowQ-Rs
Small backfire at 28:30. Note that the maximum indicated torch
pressure on the gauge is 3 psi.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #58  
Old April 30th 18, 09:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Dry lube?

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:00:31 +0200, Tosspot
wrote:

On 30/04/18 04:00, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 16:03:10 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/29/2018 10:41 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:24:45 -0700, sms
wrote:
1. Ensure that the lubricant doesn't just remain on the surface but
penetrates into the pins and rollers. It needs to be thin to do this.

Again, oil does not penetrate steel unless it is porous. Please
adjust your terminology accordingly.

I suspect that you're not a lot of fun at parties.

Fine, "it penetrates into the spaces between the pins and rollers."


You must be talking about some sort of archaic chain as modern bicycle
chains have no contact between the pins and the rollers.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html


I thought that was the bit that wore?


The pins may wear but certainly not because they are in contact with
the rollers :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #59  
Old May 1st 18, 03:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,018
Default Dry lube?

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:19:37 +0700, John B.
wrote:

My thoughts were not to have to be forever messing with rental tanks.
I get half way through a job and the oxygen runs out or the fuel gas -
I am using LPG recently - expires and one has to run out and get some
more. When we were in Phuket that was nearly an 80 km round trip :-(


Water gas welding isn't going to substitute for bottled gases. What
can you do when the gas pressure is under 2 PSI? You can run a tiny
syringe welding torch or maybe a plastic welder, but that's about it.
Gas welding aluminum is pretty much a lost art these days with the
availability of cheap TIG welding sets. I certified gas welding
aluminum in 1950 and never gas welded aluminum again :-) I seem to
remember that we gas welded aluminum using a flux which I'm not even
sure one can buy these days.


Can you butt weld 0.040 aluminum sheet metal with a TIG welder?

If you don't want to drag around a TIG or MIG shielding gas tank (with
the correct mix), maybe switch to a MIG welder with flux core wire?
The welds aren't as nice as with gas shielding, but good enough.
There's also some slag and more splatter to deal with.

For cutting, a plasma cutter requires on tank of gas. Not a big
improvement over 2 tanks for conventional oxy-acetylene cutting, but
might be worthwhile.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #60  
Old May 1st 18, 03:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Dry lube?

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 19:13:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:19:37 +0700, John B.
wrote:

My thoughts were not to have to be forever messing with rental tanks.
I get half way through a job and the oxygen runs out or the fuel gas -
I am using LPG recently - expires and one has to run out and get some
more. When we were in Phuket that was nearly an 80 km round trip :-(


Water gas welding isn't going to substitute for bottled gases. What
can you do when the gas pressure is under 2 PSI? You can run a tiny
syringe welding torch or maybe a plastic welder, but that's about it.
Gas welding aluminum is pretty much a lost art these days with the
availability of cheap TIG welding sets. I certified gas welding
aluminum in 1950 and never gas welded aluminum again :-) I seem to
remember that we gas welded aluminum using a flux which I'm not even
sure one can buy these days.


Can you butt weld 0.040 aluminum sheet metal with a TIG welder?

From the welder's point of view, certainly. However, assuming a one
pass weld the amperage of the welding set is important.

If you don't want to drag around a TIG or MIG shielding gas tank (with
the correct mix), maybe switch to a MIG welder with flux core wire?
The welds aren't as nice as with gas shielding, but good enough.
There's also some slag and more splatter to deal with.

I've never used a MIG welder. Seen them but when I was welding they
were not common but one of the guys that worked for me went off to
northern Ohio, someplace, and got a job MIG welding. He said the most
important tool was a large set of side cutters to cut off the wire
after you buzzed about a foot out of the torch and got it stuck to the
weld :-)

For cutting, a plasma cutter requires on tank of gas. Not a big
improvement over 2 tanks for conventional oxy-acetylene cutting, but
might be worthwhile.


I had a plasma cutter but never got very proficient with it. I cold
cut but the cut ends were pretty rough and needed a lot of cleaning up
with a hand grinder so I bought some 1mm disks and just used the hand
grinder as a cutoff machine.
--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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