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#11
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too polite automobile drivers.
"After you, Alphonse." "No, after YOU" The dynamic I see here is each
trying to be nice, and BOTH end up losing. And if one eventually decides to give in and go, there is a danger that the other do so also, at the same time. The driver of the car is well aware that this could be fatal to the cyclist, so is loathe to break the tie. The cyclist is well aware that this could be fatal to him, so he is also loathe to do so. The best way to avoid this is at the very beginning. If someone waves you on, the politest, safest and most efficient choice is to accept the courtesy. (Unless, of course, there are other cars contributing to the hazard, in which case, just point and smile.) |
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#12
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too polite automobile drivers.
In article ,
Luke writes: In article , catzz66 wrote: bob syr wrote: ... This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it? Bob Syr When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move on and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to me to do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go. I agree. To the OP: Habituate yourself to timing your arrival at 4 way stops in order to let queued cars the opportunity to proceed prior to reaching the intersection, then rolling on through when the way is clear. That's definitely preferable to stopping and starting. And in the cases when you, the cyclist, and a car reach the intersection simultaneously I recommend you take the initiative. Be assertive: slow down but don't stop; make eye contact; signal with your hands your direction (left, right, or straight through) then, if your intent is acknowledged and the way is clear, roll on through. No it's not a complete stop but I find the operation, done correctly, speeds everyone's passage through a 4 way stop, and is rarely begrudged by motorists. What drivers often resent, rightly or not, is cyclists conveying ambiguity or unnecessarily delaying them. No rider who follows ROW convention when there are other street/road users around should ever have to feel guilty. Holy mackerel! Just get in line and do the 4-way stop thing, like everybody else. It's just that easy. If somebody deigns to fsck-up traffic flow by either improperly yielding or stealing ROW, that's their prob, as they demonstrate their lack of social skills to the world. But we're civilized, sociable, and above all that nonsense, aren't we? cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
#13
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too polite automobile drivers.
Bill Sornson wrote:
catzz66 wrote: bob syr wrote: ... This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it? Bob Syr When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move on and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to me to do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go. Not always a safe thing to do, however. Trouble is that not all drivers think alike, so one waving you thru might conflict with the next one (or one coming from a different direction). Best bet is to /generally/ follow standard traffic rules. I agree with you about following traffic rules. I think it is important to be predictable and obey traffic signals and signage. We're talking about what happens when you do that and motorists make eye contact with you and wave you on in situations where it they would otherwise have the right of way. |
#14
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too polite automobile drivers.
On Jun 7, 5:57*am, bob syr wrote:
Hi Group - it's been a long time. Been riding bicycle about a year, less the winter. *It's getting good; I'm getting better going up upgrades and riding in high gear more (more strength in legs). *I plan on putting a couple of pannier baskets on the back and use the bike for grocery shopping. *The store is about a mile away and the route has a few hills I can't quite make yet, but I will, I hope, before the month is out. First, a word about 'local' shopping by bike. Perhaps you missed the thread; http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02ea360075852# (-: Better than panniers I would suggest. http://www.instructables.com/id/Loca...-a-cat-basket/ Anyway, I've been having this problem with automobile drivers. Sometimes drivers think it's fun to blow their horn or make other noise when they pass. *And there are others who "flip you the bird" for some reason I'm not generally aware of. *Well, fortunately these drivers are in the minority. *Annoying as these drivers may be, they are NOT the ones I'm having a problem with. Some . . *in fact many . . *auto drivers are overly polite, especially at 4-way stop signs. *I should mention I'm an older guy, lower '60s, so maybe that's why they're doubly polite, and I'm grateful. *I still sometimes have a problem starting to pedal from a full stop, so I like the intersection to be empty of traffic while I take off to cross on the bike. *I'm happy to wait. Ok, I've come from the opposite side of this problem. I've always tended to cycle on the highest gear, but now a days, what with a new bike an' all (7 gear, Prestige) and perhaps getting a bit older myself I find that I'm more inclined be more ready to remember that I'm cycling and so not at work and so can allow myself to ease up a bit. That means, albeit a bit of a habit to break, I make a point of not always staying in gear 7 (or 21 on the previous bike) I'm even getting quite good at the highest gear habit breaking thing because even on short distance interchanges, I manage to start off on 5, go to 6 and then 7 and on approaching the junction, down to 5 again to have an easy time taking off again. And I'm allowed. It's not work after all! So, I suggest you try that too. Today this guy waved me to cross in front of him while other cars were stopped at the stop sign. *Well, I did everything I could to indicate I wanted HIM to go first. *I took my hands of the handle bar and folded my arms. *That didn't work. *I then started to fiddle with my gloves hoping he would go, but he didn't. *I then DISMOUNTED and stood next to the bike. *It became a kind of a grudge match. *He insisted I cross in front of him so finally I let him win and walked my bike in front of his car and across the intersection. He had kids in the car with him, so maybe he was showing the kids how to be courteous to your elders and bike riders. *Or maybe, as a car driver, he figured HE ought to be in charge of the roadways and direct all of us guest bicyclists as to how to proceed. This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. *Is there some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it? Hmm. I'm torn between suggesting you pop over to Belgium for a spot of cycling and suggesting you never even think of it. Here in Belgium, cyclists are the king of the road.. It is commonly understood that if a motorist hits a cyclist on account of an error said cyclist made, e.g. running a red light, then it is the motorist who is at fault and not the cyclist. It's like a permanent right of way and everything else to cyclists. So you will see cyclists moving along at a nice slow casual pace in bands of at least 3 across and sometimes I even see them at so many a breast as to take up the whole 1-way street.... going the wrong way (which they are allowed to do too) And never have I heard abuse directed at them, or seen motorist 'gestures' towards cyclists other than polite ones. Perhaps then, given your aversion to polite motorists Belgium might be your hell on earth. Especially given a fairly recent change to the right of way issue. previously, if you yielded your right of way and the other motorist took it (like say you stopped when you weren't strictly obliged to) but then you changed your mind and crash into him/her, you'd be at fault. Now, if you've got the right of way and are crashed into, regardless if you had yielded it, waved them on etc... they will be at fault. That means that the politeness meter has increased it's measure of ensuring those with the right of way are given it. On the other hand, coming to belgium might be great for you. Been king of the road might compliment you cycling confidence and you might be more inclined to develop a more...urm.. safer cycling manner, independent of motorist whim. (urm... we drive on the right (- Bob Syr |
#15
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too polite automobile drivers.
Yeah, I encounter people like that... flapping their hands about behind their tinted glass. At the end of this we have rules so that every knows what to do, and safety is improved by everyone following the rules. There isn't much I can say to help you deal with people that refuse to follow the rules. Heck, I've been known to break a few of them myself, like that about riding on the sidewalk, which I will routinely do to shorten my route and avoid traffic control devices and the traffic that they attract. But I can offer some advise on starting from a dead stop on a bicycle. If not changing gears while approaching the traffic control device is an issue you may want to consider an internally geared hub rather than a derailleur type transmission. The internal hub is probably lighter than the cog-set and derailleur, and it will allow you to change gears without pedaling (while stopped). These generally require less maintenance than the derailleur. The down side to using one of these is that with the chain tensioning aspect of the rear derailleur you probably won't be able to use a front derailleur, so you bike would be limited to the 7 or 8 gears provided by the hub rather than the 21-24 provided by the combination of front and rear derailleurs. But the number of gears isn't as important as the range of gearing provided by them. Another issue might be your bicycle frame, horizontal versus vertical dropouts, It might be easier to buy a bike that was configured with an internally geared hub that to convert one, unless you just liked fiddling with mechanical things. Some . . in fact many . . auto drivers are overly polite, especially at 4-way stop signs. I should mention I'm an older guy, lower '60s, so maybe that's why they're doubly polite, and I'm grateful. I still sometimes have a problem starting to pedal from a full stop, so I like the intersection to be empty of traffic while I take off to cross on the bike. I'm happy to wait. |
#16
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too polite automobile drivers.
On Jun 6, 11:57 pm, bob syr wrote:
Anyway, I've been having this problem with automobile drivers. ... Today this guy waved me to cross in front of him while other cars were stopped at the stop sign. Well, I did everything I could to indicate I wanted HIM to go first. I took my hands of the handle bar and folded my arms. That didn't work. I then started to fiddle with my gloves hoping he would go, but he didn't. I then DISMOUNTED and stood next to the bike. It became a kind of a grudge match. He insisted I cross in front of him so finally I let him win and walked my bike in front of his car and across the intersection.... This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it? I've got several four-way stop signs on my commuting route. Here's how I deal with that problem. I take charge even before I get to the intersection. Specifically, if I'm arriving simultaneously with a car that's to my right, I begin waving them through before we even stop. Many drivers still seem hesitant, somehow not believing I'll stop, I guess. But even those will move on once they see me actually stop. When a car arrives simultaneously from the left (so that I have the ROW) I'll do the world's quickest track stand, about 0.001 second, and be sure I'm started off before they get a chance to. I had a similar "too polite" problem about a week ago, at a different intersection. I was waiting to ride out and turn left from a residential street onto an arterial. A woman driving from my right wanted to turn left into my street, but she stopped there and tried waving me out. No way! For one thing, her SUV was blocking my view of traffic. I just gave a very emphatic shake of my head, emphatically waved her on, and looked away to watch for traffic from the left. After a second or so, she shrugged and moved on, and I waved thanks. - Frank Krygowski |
#17
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too polite automobile drivers.
In article ,
aquachimp writes: On Jun 7, 5:57*am, bob syr wrote: Hi Group - it's been a long time. Been riding bicycle about a year, less the winter. *It's getting good; I'm getting better going up upgrades and riding in high gear more (more strength in legs). *I plan on putting a couple of pannier baskets on the back and use the bike for grocery shopping. *The store is about a mile away and the route has a few hills I can't quite make yet, but I will, I hope, before the month is out. First, a word about 'local' shopping by bike. Perhaps you missed the thread; http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...02ea360075852# (-: Better than panniers I would suggest. http://www.instructables.com/id/Loca...-a-cat-basket/ Panniers have certain intrinsic advantages, eg: they distribute cargo weight around a bicycle in the best manner possible. But they're really designed for touring, not for shopping. Things like potted calla lilies fare better in carriers such as your device. welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it? Hmm. I'm torn between suggesting you pop over to Belgium for a spot of cycling and suggesting you never even think of it. Here in Belgium, cyclists are the king of the road.. Heck, I'd go just for the beer, and a Watteau appreciation pilgrimage. And of course, the waffles ;-) A couple of Tours de France ago, there was much discussion about the cobbled streets in the Belgium stages. cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
#18
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too polite automobile drivers.
Leo Lichtman wrote:
"After you, Alphonse." "No, after YOU" The dynamic I see here is each trying to be nice, and BOTH end up losing. And if one eventually decides to give in and go, there is a danger that the other do so also, at the same time. The driver of the car is well aware that this could be fatal to the cyclist, so is loathe to break the tie. The cyclist is well aware that this could be fatal to him, so he is also loathe to do so. The best way to avoid this is at the very beginning. If someone waves you on, the politest, safest and most efficient choice is to accept the courtesy. (Unless, of course, there are other cars contributing to the hazard, in which case, just point and smile.) In a lower traffic density town like mine, I will just make eye contact and wave them to go whilst I aim the bike at their rear bumper so they know I want them to go. If, by chance, there is a second car, I make eye contact with them too, so they can see what is going on. All the adult motorists I have interacted with in this manner seem to leave with a smile. The problem drivers tend to be teenaged males who seem to want to make problems for others. Fortunately that type of driver is rare, thanks in part to more police enforcement around here. I did almost get hit by some moron trying to make a right turn at nearly skidding speed, so I never take along a music box of any kind. If I can't see them, at least I can hear them. Since I only ride at around 12-15 MPH in populated areas I have had no trouble serious enough to report. Cheers, Bill Baka |
#19
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too polite automobile drivers.
On Jun 7, 7:09 am, Luke wrote:
In article , catzz66 wrote: bob syr wrote: ... This is becoming a real problem; I suppose I should be thankful that these folks and making an effort to be polite, but I am starting to dread approaching intersections with all-way stop signs. Is there some way we can advertise to auto drivers that their politeness is welcome, but let's not be ridiculous with it? Bob Syr When I first started riding, I was more rigid and would insist that motorists with the right of way drive on, but now I accept their generosity. Learn how to smile and give a friendly wave as you move on and it can become your default response. It doesn't make sense to me to do anything else. If someone is nice enough to wave me on, I acknowledge them with a smile and wave and then go. I agree. To the OP: Habituate yourself to timing your arrival at 4 way stops in order to let queued cars the opportunity to proceed prior to reaching the intersection, then rolling on through when the way is clear. That's definitely preferable to stopping and starting. And in the cases when you, the cyclist, and a car reach the intersection simultaneously I recommend you take the initiative. Be assertive: slow down but don't stop; make eye contact; signal with your hands your direction (left, right, or straight through) then, if your intent is acknowledged and the way is clear, roll on through. No it's not a complete stop but I find the operation, done correctly, speeds everyone's passage through a 4 way stop, and is rarely begrudged by motorists. What drivers often resent, rightly or not, is cyclists conveying ambiguity or unnecessarily delaying them. Luke is right on! The idea is to speed everyone safely through the intersection, so you must time your arrival to the 4 way stop with the OP. That way, there is no ambiguity about who arrived first and should therefore go first. Just like the DMV guidebooks say about defensive driving here in California: use S.E.E. Search! Examine! Execute! This intersection is another example of how defensive driving actually makes dealing with traffic go smoother, faster, and more fun! I live in a very busy neighborhood with 4 way stops on LITERALLY every other corner, and I encounter these friendly-hesitant-driver types (which is a blessing) quite often. So to get to places in a reasonable amount of time, I do exactly what Luke is talking about...timing and courteous initiative. I don't know if my technique will work for everyone's neighborhood, but here it is: Before approaching an intersection I SEARCH! for other drivers approaching the intersection, EXAMINE! what they are about to do (ETA to intersection? do they even notice me? Do they appear to be on a rush? ) EXECUTE! with these friendly-hesitant types, I take initiative by the use of body language like, "ok I'm rolling" (by looking at your path of travel, and keeping them within your peripheral view) AND make a peace sign "Thanks" (without taking my hand off the handlebars). IF my path of travel and other traffic permits, I will even go behind their bumper so they don't have to wait for me to pass. I use extra SEE in executing this, and when done right, it saves them time, and it saves me the annoyance of worrying about their indecisiveness. |
#20
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too polite automobile drivers.
On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 08:37:48 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc, "Pat"
wrote: Hey! The OP is in his 60's, so the overwhelming chances are that he KNOWS the traffic rules! i'm in my 60s, too. he might know the traffic rules, but he was explictly ignoring them, which makes the situation less safe. |
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