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Before & after bike ghettos



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 22nd 10, 02:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Dan O
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On Oct 21, 5:50 pm, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
On 10/20/2010 9:49 AM, Peter Cole wrote:

[...]
As for "friendliness", I don't know how to measure that directly, but it
seems that people who choose to live among lots of other people must
like people more than those who choose the prairie.[...]


Yet, in the real world, people are the most rude and stand-offish in
large cites.

While you do get people that want to be "left the hell alone" in remote
rural areas, these people almost never bother those who do not intrude
upon them.


I refer to my hometown as "Mayberry" all the time here, and it's
remarkably apt. Remarkably. (Sometimes I think Frank must live in
"Pleasantville", but that's another issue.) But anyway, yeah - here
in "Mayberry" everyone looks each other in the eye and says, "Hi", as
they walk past on the street, whereas in the city I ride to work in,
almost *nobody* will make eye contact (I do have a pretty good rapport
with those apparently formerly instituionalized folks that I mentioned
before - whatever that means :-)
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  #22  
Old October 22nd 10, 10:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Chalo
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

Dan O wrote:

But anyway, yeah - here
in "Mayberry" everyone looks each other in the eye and says, "Hi", as
they walk past on the street, whereas in the city I ride to work in,
almost *nobody* will make eye contact


Go to New Orleans and repeat your survey. Mayberry has nothing on a
real Southern city. NO is one of those few places that when I say
"howdy", folks usually tell me how they are doing.

Chalo
  #23  
Old October 22nd 10, 01:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Chalo" wrote in message ...

Dan O wrote:

But anyway, yeah - here
in "Mayberry" everyone looks each other in the eye and says, "Hi", as
they walk past on the street, whereas in the city I ride to work in,
almost *nobody* will make eye contact


Go to New Orleans and repeat your survey. Mayberry has nothing on a
real Southern city. NO is one of those few places that when I say
"howdy", folks usually tell me how they are doing.


Probably even invite you home for a bowl of gumbo.

I was born and raised there but I moved to Boston for
work. After a few years when I went home for visits
I could notice the difference. In Boston when your
in a crowded elevator, everyone tries to not make
eye contact with any one else. In New Orleans, by
the time you get off the elevator, you know everyone
else and have a couple of dinner invitations.
  #24  
Old October 22nd 10, 03:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/21/2010 8:50 PM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/20/2010 9:49 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
As for "friendliness", I don't know how to measure that directly, but it
seems that people who choose to live among lots of other people must
like people more than those who choose the prairie.[...]


Yet, in the real world, people are the most rude and stand-offish in
large cites.

While you do get people that want to be "left the hell alone" in remote
rural areas, these people almost never bother those who do not intrude
upon them.


This is all a matter of density, same as bike riding. There are just as
many rural nutters as urban, it's just that the odds of encountering any
possible type go up with exposure rate, ditto for homicidal drivers.

This paper relates that mental health problems arise at the same rate
between rural and urban children while rural children don't seem to get
the same level of treatment:
http://muskie.usm.maine.edu/Publicat...h-Services.pdf.
Supports my experience.

"Standoffish-ness" can be interpreted as rude by those used to less
dense environments, but people are people, and these behaviors are part
of the deal. You don't make eye contact and/or small talk on crowded
subway trains or elevators. As personal space shrinks, the "bubble" gets
tighter. It's just human nature. It doesn't mean those people are all
misanthropes, far from it.

You seem to have this dislike for density, fine, but density supports
unique cultural opportunities and diversity. A more crowded environment
is generally a richer environment. You have more choices of employment,
entertainment and, yes, even friendship. Plus, for those concerned with
resource and population issues, dense communities are much more
efficient, having typically something like 1/4 the carbon footprint as
an equally affluent suburban location. Heck, almost half of New Yorkers
don't even own cars. Try that in Iowa.
  #25  
Old October 22nd 10, 03:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/21/2010 8:53 PM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/20/2010 10:44 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
I'd point out that while roaming over New England by bike, I never felt
any inhospitable treatment, maybe I just have low standards, but people
seemed friendly enough, and quite tolerant of cyclists.[...]


Even in the urban Boston and NYC parts of New England?


I don't think any part of New England is at all like NYC.

Urban Boston hasn't changed much in the decades I've been biking it.
It's not a great cycling town, but it could be, and is finally showing
signs of improvement. It's much more like many European cities in
density and haphazard layout. The car culture was a similarly poor fit,
and jamming it onto the city created some really bad problems, which I
think the infamous "Boston driving" habits reflect. I prefer to ride the
urban sections during the summer and on weekends when things are saner.
Boston is so compact you can circumnavigate it by bike in an hour or so,
getting just about anywhere you want faster than any other means, but
it's still badly chopped up by high speed arterials and geographic
features that aren't often negotiable by bike.

Rural New England is pretty much like rural anywhere. The big change has
been suburban sprawl, often into these formerly sleepy towns with
limited access roads (often colonial era). This has had me abandoning
many of my formerly favorite bike routes, as these rural transplants are
often in a big hurry to commute and shop and have little tolerance for
bikes. The "locals" were always pretty tolerant, if not exactly
outgoing, the suburbanites -- not so much, and getting less so.


  #26  
Old October 22nd 10, 06:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/22/2010 1:08 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
Tom Sherman considered Thu,
21 Oct 2010 19:50:44 -0500 the perfect time to write:

On 10/20/2010 9:49 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
As for "friendliness", I don't know how to measure that directly, but it
seems that people who choose to live among lots of other people must
like people more than those who choose the prairie.[...]


Yet, in the real world, people are the most rude and stand-offish in
large cites.

While you do get people that want to be "left the hell alone" in remote
rural areas, these people almost never bother those who do not intrude
upon them.


I believe that when social interaction is relatively infrequent it is
more of a pleasure than when it is forced on you every waking minute
of every day.


Undoubtedly, which is why New Yorkers don't walk down the street
greeting every passerby.
  #27  
Old October 23rd 10, 01:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/22/2010 9:30 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
On 10/21/2010 8:53 PM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
On 10/20/2010 10:44 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
[...]
I'd point out that while roaming over New England by bike, I never felt
any inhospitable treatment, maybe I just have low standards, but people
seemed friendly enough, and quite tolerant of cyclists.[...]


Even in the urban Boston and NYC parts of New England?


I don't think any part of New England is at all like NYC.

Urban Boston hasn't changed much in the decades I've been biking it.
It's not a great cycling town, but it could be, and is finally showing
signs of improvement. It's much more like many European cities in
density and haphazard layout. The car culture was a similarly poor fit,
and jamming it onto the city created some really bad problems, which I
think the infamous "Boston driving" habits reflect.


As I have posted a bunch of other places in this thread, there needs to
be personal economic disincentives toward personal motor vehicle use in
large cities.

I prefer to ride the
urban sections during the summer and on weekends when things are saner.
Boston is so compact you can circumnavigate it by bike in an hour or so,
getting just about anywhere you want faster than any other means, but
it's still badly chopped up by high speed arterials and geographic
features that aren't often negotiable by bike.

Rural New England is pretty much like rural anywhere. The big change has
been suburban sprawl, often into these formerly sleepy towns with
limited access roads (often colonial era). This has had me abandoning
many of my formerly favorite bike routes, as these rural transplants are
often in a big hurry to commute and shop and have little tolerance for
bikes. The "locals" were always pretty tolerant, if not exactly
outgoing, the suburbanites -- not so much, and getting less so.

Suburban sprawl with "McMansions" is bad everywhere in the world.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #28  
Old October 23rd 10, 03:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Posts: 4,572
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/22/2010 8:40 PM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:

As I have posted a bunch of other places in this thread, there needs to
be personal economic disincentives toward personal motor vehicle use in
large cities.


And attractive alternatives, unless you want to create a Stalinist utopia.


Suburban sprawl with "McMansions" is bad everywhere in the world.


No kidding.


 




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