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Before & after bike ghettos



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 19th 10, 04:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

Frank Krygowski writes:

On Oct 18, 4:40*pm, Phil W Lee wrote:
Frank Krygowski considered Mon, 18 Oct 2010
11:39:39 -0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write:



I say they should be told "This is how to safely cycle even when there
is no bike lane," and instructed how to ride as a legal vehicle
operator. *But if they learn that... why do they need the bike lane in
the first place?


At least locally to me, many bike lanes are situated in places where
they allow the cyclists to bypass queuing motor traffic.

Take the bike lane out (as sometimes happens temporarily during
resurfacing of roads) and the drivers queue in zigzag formation,
blocking the road to all but the most experienced cyclists.


I can visualize how that might happen. However, it's not part of my
experience. That is, in all my decades of riding, I've almost never
bothered to pass a queue of motorists. My standard has been this: I
would do it if it prevented me from making the green in the current
traffic light cycle. IME, that's just a very rare occurrence.

Even then, the usual lane widths permit me to pass stopped cars very
slowly if I choose to do so. (And doing so at speed would be risky in
any case.) When cars are stopped, it takes less than 3 feet of space
for me to ride through slowly. I don't see motorists randomly queuing
so crookedly as to prevent that much passage space.


I don't think your experience is typical of rush hour commuters, at all.
Traffic is a local phenomenon, both in space and time. The first week
of August is not the first week of September. Sunday afternoon is not
Wednesday morning. 7:00am is not 9:30am.

Cycle touring across the country, or the world, does not provide a
transect of rush hour conditions. Tourists seldom choose routes that
hit all the local industrial parks. When on vacation, morning rush hour
seems like a fine time to have breakfast.

When I cycle to work, at least at this time of year, the first thing I
see is a line of cars, moving at walking speed, right past the building
where I live. They are waiting to cross a bridge, about half a mile
down the street. The school on the way does not speed anyone up.

I would no more get in their line on a bicycle than I would stop to
taunt loose cattle with a cycling cape, and for many of the same
reasons. On the other hand, no one is surprised or upset that I pass
them on the right. I do watch for cars entering and leaving parking
lots, and for opening doors. Near the bridge there is a left turn lane,
so room is tight and I may use the sidewalk (at walking speed).

After I clear my town I pass through a series of successively leafier
and more prosperous looking streets, most of them quiet. I think Peter
Cole might call some of the "rural", and in living memory they are.
Nowadays, with a few exceptions, the land grows but children, poison
ivy, and property taxes; people have to commute to work.

Depending on how early I am (this post is not a complaint, my schedule
is reasonably flexible), I come upon a traffic back up of up to a mile,
waiting for a four way stop not far from where I work. The drivers
expect it, so they are not too impatient. They pay enough attention to
keep between the lines, and keep moving, again at walking speed. But
some only just pay attention -- they oscillate slowly from side to side,
producing exactly the zigzag pattern described above. There is no
shoulder, so I either pass the rightmost of them on the left, on a grass
verge, or on the sidewalk.

Sometimes drivers do move deliberately out of my way, I give them a
wave. It's hard to tell if anyone purposefully obstructs me, if they do
they're pretty subtle. No one complains audibly about being passed. If
I were to get in line most would think me dangerously insane.

If I pass this area an hour or so later, there are just a few cars
waiting, and I do fall into line and wait my turn.

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  #2  
Old October 19th 10, 05:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Radey Shouman" wrote in message ...
snip
Sometimes drivers do move deliberately out of my way, I give them a
wave. It's hard to tell if anyone purposefully obstructs me, if they do
they're pretty subtle. No one complains audibly about being passed. If
I were to get in line most would think me dangerously insane.


Pretty much my experience. But Frank seems to think that if someone
obstructs me it's because they are attacking me or something because
it's apparently so rare chez lui.

I only rarely have any sort of audible
interaction though I have friends that seem to get into it more often.

If I pass this area an hour or so later, there are just a few cars
waiting, and I do fall into line and wait my turn.


Unfortunately, I have to commute pretty much at rush hour.
But when I'm riding on my own, then I sometime fall in line
and wait in that situation.

Pretty standard stuff IMO.




  #3  
Old October 19th 10, 06:32 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Radey Shouman
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Duane Hebert" writes:

"Radey Shouman" wrote in message ...
snip
Sometimes drivers do move deliberately out of my way, I give them a
wave. It's hard to tell if anyone purposefully obstructs me, if they do
they're pretty subtle. No one complains audibly about being passed. If
I were to get in line most would think me dangerously insane.


Pretty much my experience. But Frank seems to think that if someone
obstructs me it's because they are attacking me or something because
it's apparently so rare chez lui.


IIRC, Frank is a semi-retired university professor, who lives in what he
describes as a "village". From what I know of fully-employed
professors, they may work hard, but also enjoy surprising latitude in
how they arrange their schedules. I doubt Frank has had to deal with a
normal urban commute for thirty years or more. Good for him, but he
errs in thinking his good fortune universal.

I only rarely have any sort of audible
interaction though I have friends that seem to get into it more often.


The recent cases that stick in my mind were several for moving (legally)
into a left lane to turn left. Also for being passed, very slowly, by a
club riding two abreast -- that annoyed me as well.
  #4  
Old October 19th 10, 06:44 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Radey Shouman" wrote in message ...
I only rarely have any sort of audible
interaction though I have friends that seem to get into it more often.


The recent cases that stick in my mind were several for moving (legally)
into a left lane to turn left. Also for being passed, very slowly, by a
club riding two abreast -- that annoyed me as well.


The worst case that I've seen around here was recently a cyclist
was nearly beaten to death:
http://westislandgazette.com/news/police/16340


  #5  
Old October 19th 10, 06:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Radey Shouman" wrote in message ...

The recent cases that stick in my mind were several for moving (legally)
into a left lane to turn left. Also for being passed, very slowly, by a
club riding two abreast -- that annoyed me as well.


Well I did have this one guy who was behind me wanting to turn right
from the center (which was a straight or right lane) when I was going
straight. The right lane was right only so I was in the center lane.
When the right arrow lit, he got ****ed at having to wait for me.
He wanted me to ride on the sidewalk so we had words.
But it's not an every day thing.

What happens everyday is the jockeying for position on the roads.
This is what I mean by fighting with the motorists.

BTW I also get annoyed when driving and cyclists are riding
two abreast and blocking me. Our club tells us to pay attention
to drivers and try to accommodate them when we can.
  #6  
Old October 20th 10, 04:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On Oct 19, 12:38*pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Radey Shouman" wrote in ...

snip

Sometimes drivers do move deliberately out of my way, I give them a
wave. *It's hard to tell if anyone purposefully obstructs me, if they do
they're pretty subtle. *No one complains audibly about being passed. *If
I were to get in line most would think me dangerously insane.


Pretty much my experience. *But Frank seems to think that if someone
obstructs me it's because they are attacking me or something ...


Nope. I'm finding it hard to believe that people are obstructed in
that situation with any regularity.

Admittedly, I don't have to deal with such dense traffic very often.
One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
I've absolutely never seen. That's well over 200 cars backed up, and
at an overoptimistic five seconds per car, that's over fifteen minutes
to even make it to the stop sign.

Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
right. But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often.

- Frank Krygowski
  #7  
Old October 20th 10, 04:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On Oct 19, 1:32*pm, Radey Shouman wrote:


IIRC, Frank is a semi-retired university professor, who lives in what he
describes as a "village". *From what I know of fully-employed
professors, they may work hard, but also enjoy surprising latitude in
how they arrange their schedules. *I doubt Frank has had to deal with a
normal urban commute for thirty years or more. *Good for him, but he
errs in thinking his good fortune universal.


That is my current situation, and no, I don't think my luck is
universal.

OTOH, my previous teaching job had me riding to work almost every day
precisely at rush hour, from my home almost dead center in a small
city. In three places I worked as an engineer, the hours were normal
8 to 5, although I only biked to two of them. One was 35 miles away -
too far to bike. And my current job often had me riding at rush hour
- it just depended on my schedule that semester.

It could have been worse, I'm sure. But it's wrong to imagine that
I've never dealt with rush hour traffic.

- Frank Krygowski
  #8  
Old October 20th 10, 05:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/19/2010 10:43 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
[...] In three places I worked as an engineer, the hours were normal
8 to 5[...]


What? 7 to 7 is more like normal working hours for an engineer.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #9  
Old October 20th 10, 05:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]
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Posts: 2,312
Default Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/19/2010 10:28 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
[...]
Admittedly, I don't have to deal with such dense traffic very often.
One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
I've absolutely never seen.[...]


You must never have been on a large campus on a football Saturday.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #10  
Old October 20th 10, 01:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.misc
Duane Hebert[_2_]
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Default Before & after bike ghettos

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On Oct 19, 12:38 pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Radey Shouman" wrote in ...


Nope. I'm finding it hard to believe that people are obstructed in
that situation with any regularity.


Incredible.

Admittedly, I don't have to deal with such dense traffic very often.
One of you guys talked about a mile backup from a stop sign, something
I've absolutely never seen. That's well over 200 cars backed up, and
at an overoptimistic five seconds per car, that's over fifteen minutes
to even make it to the stop sign.


Had to take the car today (grumble) and had a wait of 10 minutes at
one stop. Probably not a mile, more like 4 blocks but it's a 4-way so it
took more than 5 seconds per car.
On my bike, I would have been in the bike lane (sorry, I meant inside the
paint) and it would have taken 20 seconds like it did every day that I wasn't
driving.

Yes, in a situation like that, I'd probably pass carefully on the
right. But I'm a bit skeptical that such an event happens very often.


Be skeptical if you like but you should investigate life in the real world
before dismissing anyone with a solution different than yours. Without
the bike lane you wouldn't have passed carefully on the right because
all of the traffic turning right in front of you would have been hugging
the curb.

Vehicular cycling works some time. Some time it doesn't.
Even Forester doesn't claim that it works everywhere.

Maybe we should take a poll and see how many people here have a commute
similar to this or who are skeptical that this exists?
 




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