Redline Conquest

On 10/21/2019 1:17 PM, jbeattie wrote:

OT, one reason I remember that race is because I did it year after year. Nasty climbing course, but when the cam came loose, I was riding behind a guy on a Softride with a disc rear wheel or three spoke or something that made the bike go whoo-whoo-whoo-whoo as the wheel went around. So, imaging following a guy on a pogo stick with a rear wheel that sounded like a distant helicopter. All he needed was an MP3 player/speakers blaring Die Walküre.

One of my friends had a bike that sounds identical. I remember his
bouncing, but I don't remember the odd sounds.

It would be interesting to see a pictorial history of modern performance
bicycles brief fads: 19mm tires, drillium, Bio-Pace, Softride, Zzipper
fairings, Tri-spokes, ultra-short wheelbases with bent seat tubes...
what else?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/21/2019 1:42 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2,
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On
all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork
ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an
aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind
that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts,
not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF
bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling,
off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your
fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB
handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not
have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the
wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when
getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my
bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel
off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick
release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have
to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on.
Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb
fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a
front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time
you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust
and operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust
the quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just
by the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to
me, it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that
marketing trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real
practical reason.

By feature I guess you mean quick release axles. How about drop bars?
Multi-speed freewheels as opposed to internally geared hubs? Toe clips?

Drop bars, perhaps yes. They really don't help most people on bikes;
their value is only for long or fast rides. Interestingly, I've noticed
that several of our club members' new-this-year bikes have flat bars of
one flavor or another, for use on rides of 20 to 30 miles at least.

Toe clips are similar, but as I recall, those were normally add-on
accessories, not stock equipment.

I think derailleur gears make more sense than hub gears for a lot of
people. I do use a three-speed Sturmey-Archer hub on one utility bike,
but its gear range would be insufficient if the hills were much worse.
And I think hub gears are pricier than derailleurs of equivalent quality.



--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, 21 October 2019 12:31:55 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust and
operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust the
quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just by
the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to me,
it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that marketing
trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real practical reason..

--
- Frank Krygowski

When I commuted along Bloor Street in Toronto Canada, I often stopped a bicyclist because their quick-release lever was sticking straight out from the wheel, that is the lever was parallel to the ground and in line with the hub. For such people layer lips might be a good idea. Sometimes I'd just lightly tap their quick-release lever and it's open. Turned out that no one ever showed the person how to use a quick release. That problem was even worse with department store bicycles.

Cheers

On Monday, 21 October 2019 12:31:55 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling, off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust and
operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust the
quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just by
the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to me,
it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that marketing
trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real practical reason..

--
- Frank Krygowski

A surprising number of people use a quick release like a one-sided wing nut.. They just turn the lever until the thing feels tight and often the curve of the lever is facing away from the wheel.

Cheers

On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:43:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:31 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir
Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4,
wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2,
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5,
jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first
order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on
this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the
tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind
off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end
is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal
off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not
carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On
my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding,
actually filling, off that little blob doesn't
compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as
shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is
no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you
do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the
lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in
perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from
friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to
put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel
off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing
the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick
release width and I have to then readjust the dang
thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists
have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab
feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a
front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature.
Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety
hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety
hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer
lips exist specifically for the benefit of people who don't
know how to adjust and operate a quick release. But they
force those people to re-adjust the quick release every time
they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held
in just by the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much
stability is lost. But to me, it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature
that marketing trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks,
for no real practical reason.


It was mandated by the Federal government through CPSC
regulations of 1974. At one time, there were a half-dozen
styles ranging from elegant to Rube Goldberg. The infamous
'lawyer lips' won out.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

1974? Are you sure? I saw many bikes in the mid-1980s that did not have lawyer lips.

Cheers

On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:57:14 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 1:42 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2,
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On
all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork
ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an
aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind
that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts,
not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF
bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling,
off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your
fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB
handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not
have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the
wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when
getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my
bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel
off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick
release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have
to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on.
Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb
fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a
front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time
you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust
and operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust
the quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just
by the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to
me, it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that
marketing trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real
practical reason.

By feature I guess you mean quick release axles. How about drop bars?
Multi-speed freewheels as opposed to internally geared hubs? Toe clips?

Drop bars, perhaps yes. They really don't help most people on bikes;
their value is only for long or fast rides. Interestingly, I've noticed
that several of our club members' new-this-year bikes have flat bars of
one flavor or another, for use on rides of 20 to 30 miles at least.

Toe clips are similar, but as I recall, those were normally add-on
accessories, not stock equipment.

I think derailleur gears make more sense than hub gears for a lot of
people. I do use a three-speed Sturmey-Archer hub on one utility bike,
but its gear range would be insufficient if the hills were much worse.
And I think hub gears are pricier than derailleurs of equivalent quality.



--
- Frank Krygowski

I often thought that a 3-speed SA or Shimano internal gear hub and a triple crank would be ideal for a lot of people.

Cheers

On 10/21/2019 4:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:43:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:31 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir
Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4,
wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2,
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5,
jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first
order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on
this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the
tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind
off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end
is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal
off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not
carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On
my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding,
actually filling, off that little blob doesn't
compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as
shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is
no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you
do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the
lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in
perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from
friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to
put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel
off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing
the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick
release width and I have to then readjust the dang
thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists
have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab
feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a
front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature.
Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety
hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety
hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer
lips exist specifically for the benefit of people who don't
know how to adjust and operate a quick release. But they
force those people to re-adjust the quick release every time
they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held
in just by the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much
stability is lost. But to me, it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature
that marketing trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks,
for no real practical reason.


It was mandated by the Federal government through CPSC
regulations of 1974. At one time, there were a half-dozen
styles ranging from elegant to Rube Goldberg. The infamous
'lawyer lips' won out.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

1974? Are you sure? I saw many bikes in the mid-1980s that did not have lawyer lips.

Good catch. Our 1986 Cannondales never had them, AFAIK. Maybe it wasn't
a CPSC mandate, but instead a voluntary reaction to lawsuits?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/21/2019 4:16 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:57:14 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 1:42 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2,
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On
all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork
ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an
aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind
that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts,
not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF
bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling,
off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your
fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB
handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not
have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the
wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when
getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my
bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel
off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick
release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have
to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on.
Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb
fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a
front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time
you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust
and operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust
the quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just
by the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to
me, it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that
marketing trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real
practical reason.

By feature I guess you mean quick release axles. How about drop bars?
Multi-speed freewheels as opposed to internally geared hubs? Toe clips?

Drop bars, perhaps yes. They really don't help most people on bikes;
their value is only for long or fast rides. Interestingly, I've noticed
that several of our club members' new-this-year bikes have flat bars of
one flavor or another, for use on rides of 20 to 30 miles at least.

Toe clips are similar, but as I recall, those were normally add-on
accessories, not stock equipment.

I think derailleur gears make more sense than hub gears for a lot of
people. I do use a three-speed Sturmey-Archer hub on one utility bike,
but its gear range would be insufficient if the hills were much worse.
And I think hub gears are pricier than derailleurs of equivalent quality.



--
- Frank Krygowski

I often thought that a 3-speed SA or Shimano internal gear hub and a triple crank would be ideal for a lot of people.

Perhaps so. But I'd strongly recommend SA over Shimano, based on my
experience. Of course, you'd need a chain tensioning system - jockey
pulleys or something similar.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/21/2019 3:16 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:57:14 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 1:42 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2,
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on this. On
all but one of my bikes I have ground off the tabs on the fork
ends. The only fork I did not grind off is a carbon fork with an
aero blade so the fork end is about 2 inches long. Can't grind
that much metal off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts,
not carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On my CF
bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding, actually filling,
off that little blob doesn't compromize the strength of your
fork. It is as save as shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB
handlebar. There is no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you do not
have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the lever and the
wheel falls out and goes back in perfectly. But sometimes when
getting rides from friends, they will take the front wheel off my
bike to put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel
off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing the quick
release nut. Which messes up my quick release width and I have
to then readjust the dang thing when putting the wheel back on.
Most bicyclists have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb
fork tab feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a
front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature. Every time
you take out your frontwheel creates a safety hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer lips exist
specifically for the benefit of people who don't know how to adjust
and operate a quick release. But they force those people to re-adjust
the quick release every time they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely held in just
by the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much stability is lost. But to
me, it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature that
marketing trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks, for no real
practical reason.

By feature I guess you mean quick release axles. How about drop bars?
Multi-speed freewheels as opposed to internally geared hubs? Toe clips?

Drop bars, perhaps yes. They really don't help most people on bikes;
their value is only for long or fast rides. Interestingly, I've noticed
that several of our club members' new-this-year bikes have flat bars of
one flavor or another, for use on rides of 20 to 30 miles at least.

Toe clips are similar, but as I recall, those were normally add-on
accessories, not stock equipment.

I think derailleur gears make more sense than hub gears for a lot of
people. I do use a three-speed Sturmey-Archer hub on one utility bike,
but its gear range would be insufficient if the hills were much worse.
And I think hub gears are pricier than derailleurs of equivalent quality.



--
- Frank Krygowski

I often thought that a 3-speed SA or Shimano internal gear hub and a triple crank would be ideal for a lot of people.

Cheers


Being a happy three speed rider for many long years I'm not
so sure about that.

Front changers and a chain tensioner conflict with the
simplicity of an internal gear system. Even Raleigh's Cyclo
conversion kit to add two or 3 sprockets to a Sturmey AW
gearbox was not all that popular. And that used long lasting
inexpensive 1/8" chain rather than skinny 3/32" chain.
Triple is s tough sell to our crowd.

Many internal gearbox cyclists merely change the sprocket,
most often from the standard 18t to a 20t, 22t or 24t, which
is cheap and quick, dropping the whole range down somewhat.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/21/2019 4:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 4:15 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 13:43:07 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:31 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/21/2019 11:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 7:47:07 AM UTC-7, Sir
Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, 21 October 2019 10:41:09 UTC-4,
wrote:
On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 12:22:06 AM UTC+2,
wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:12:32 PM UTC-5,
jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 11:59:37 AM UTC-7,
Tom Kunich wrote:
Everyone always grinds lawyer's lips off as a first
order of maintenance.

Really? On CF forks? Not me.

-- Jay Beattie.

As much as it pains me, I'll sort of agree with Tom on
this. On all but one of my bikes I have ground off the
tabs on the fork ends. The only fork I did not grind
off is a carbon fork with an aero blade so the fork end
is about 2 inches long. Can't grind that much metal
off. All my carbon forks have aluminum dropouts, not
carbon dropouts. So grinding is safe.

Even on carbon dropouts I grind off the laywer lips. On
my CF bikes it is just a little carbon blob. Grinding,
actually filling, off that little blob doesn't
compromize the strength of your fork. It is as save as
shorten your CF steerer tube or MTB handlebar. There is
no load on that part.



Which brings up an irritation. With no fork tabs, you
do not have to unscrew the dropout nut. Just flip the
lever and the wheel falls out and goes back in
perfectly. But sometimes when getting rides from
friends, they will take the front wheel off my bike to
put it on a rack. And when they take the front wheel
off, the very first thing they do is start unscrewing
the quick release nut. Which messes up my quick
release width and I have to then readjust the dang
thing when putting the wheel back on. Most bicyclists
have been made stupid and dumb from this dumb fork tab
feature. They no longer know how to correctly remove a
front wheel on a bicycle.

+1 Laywer lips is an incredible stupid safety feature.
Every time you take out your frontwheel creates a safety
hazard.

An inconvenience, yes, but I don't think they're a safety
hazard.

Not a huge hazard, but I think the hazard is there. Lawyer
lips exist specifically for the benefit of people who don't
know how to adjust and operate a quick release. But they
force those people to re-adjust the quick release every
time
they use it! That's just weird.

Admittedly, I haven't tried riding with a wheel loosely
held
in just by the lawyer lips, so I don't know how much
stability is lost. But to me, it seems like a bad solution.

I think of it as perhaps the first "racing bike" feature
that marketing trickled down from enthusiasts to JRA folks,
for no real practical reason.


It was mandated by the Federal government through CPSC
regulations of 1974. At one time, there were a half-dozen
styles ranging from elegant to Rube Goldberg. The infamous
'lawyer lips' won out.


1974? Are you sure? I saw many bikes in the mid-1980s
that did not have lawyer lips.

Good catch. Our 1986 Cannondales never had them, AFAIK.
Maybe it wasn't a CPSC mandate, but instead a voluntary
reaction to lawsuits?




As with so much of life (how's that 100-year old worldwide
Heroin ban going?) intent and results may and usually do differ:

https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-R...anuary-1-1975/

Enforcement was uneven at best. Large manufacturers
suffered, small to midsize ignored the regulations usually.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971