Favorite Europe Vintage Sources ?

- Bob - writes:

I'm interested in sources for some vintage parts... mostly European,
non Italian.

In Europe :
www.renaissance-cycles.com - mostly campagnolo, some french & spanish parts
www.xxcycle.com - home of ZEFAL, still making some pumps, & stronglight & TA
www.spacycles.com - sachs / maillard freewheels, NOS, good prices on brooks.

In the USA :
www.harriscyclery.com - good support for french cranksets
www.bicycleclassics.com - some french stuff (Atom 700 pedals, simplex)
www.yellowjersey.org - custom suntour freewheels, maillard / normandy.
ebay - random NOS suntour freewheels
your local bike shop - still has NOS suntour freewheels, mine did last year.

As far as freewheels go, i prefer suntour ultra 6 and ultra 7
freewheels. Suntour freewheels are extremely durable, one body does
IT ALL, 5, 6, 6U, and 7U, and they are plentiful in black, silver,
gold, and are quite affordable ($20 - $30 NOS.)

The only freewheel that might be better than Suntour is Sachs /
Maillard, and mainly its because cog spacing matches present-day
8-speed and so indexed derailleurs can work with them. Not worth the
$50/freewheel, imho.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

- Bob - wrote:
Don:

You brought up a _very_ interesting point here. I have a Suntour 6sp
Winner Ultra 13-15-17-19-21-24 where the 13 cog screws directly onto
the body. I also have Winner Pro 6sp 13-14-15-17-19-21 on which
the 13 cog is clearly screwed to the 14 cog.

From what you are saying, I can simply pull the 13/14 combo cog off
the 13-21 and screw them on the 13-24 in place of the 13 cog... and
I have a seven speed Ultra!

Have I missed something here? Are there differences in the Winner vs.
the Winner Pro sprockets that I've missed ? Are there any spacing
issues (not frame/axle but cog to cog) that I don't know about ?

No, it won't work, because yes, there are spacing issues. The 13/14 6sp
cogs have a different built-in spacers than ultra cogs. I think the
13/14 combo may screw on with the 14 cog hard against your 15 cog, i.e.
with no intervening space. You need an ultra 13/14 (or 12/13 or 12/14)
combination. These are still available from Muzi's sto
http://www.yellowjersey.org/stfw.html

Details (or see the great scanned diagrams on Muzi's site above):

Both the "regular"-spaced 6 and the "Ultra"-7 had the two smallest cogs
screwed together and the larger one screwed to the freewheel body. For
a "regular"-6, the two top cogs were labelled "E" and "X". For an
ultra-7, the two top cogs were "U" and "L". The remaining cogs on both
types were of types "T", "R", and "A", in that order, yielding the
useful mnemonics "E-X-T-R-A" and "U-L-T-R-A" for cog types of the two
spacings, respectively. (Actually E-X-T-R-A-A and U-L-T-R-R-A-A, if I
recall).

Good luck,
Mark Janeba

On 20 Aug 2004 16:03:20 -0700, (Donald Gillies)
wrote:
As far as freewheels go, i prefer suntour ultra 6 and ultra 7
freewheels. Suntour freewheels are extremely durable, one body does
IT ALL, 5, 6, 6U, and 7U, and they are plentiful in black, silver,
gold, and are quite affordable ($20 - $30 NOS.)

- Bob - wrote:
You brought up a _very_ interesting point here. I have a Suntour 6sp
Winner Ultra 13-15-17-19-21-24 where the 13 cog screws directly onto
the body. I also have Winner Pro 6sp 13-14-15-17-19-21 on which
the 13 cog is clearly screwed to the 14 cog.

From what you are saying, I can simply pull the 13/14 combo cog off
the 13-21 and screw them on the 13-24 in place of the 13 cog... and
I have a seven speed Ultra!

Have I missed something here? Are there differences in the Winner vs.
the Winner Pro sprockets that I've missed ? Are there any spacing
issues (not frame/axle but cog to cog) that I don't know about ?

I believe what you would have would be a seven speed
freewheel with unusual spacing. Look at the space between
cogs at both the low and high ends on both and compare.
Although these are cassettes, not freewheels, this may be
instructive:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/stcass.html

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

- Bob - wrote:

I'm interested in sources for some vintage parts... mostly European,
non Italian. Right now I'm looking for a cluster and a vintage Zefal
pump. I might be persuaded to use a Suntour cluster if I can't find
what I want in Sachs or similar. The stuff doesn't have to be new,
but obviously serviceable. Ebay is OK... but I'd prefer to find some
sources where I can just buy what I need when I need it.

Hope this is isn't patronising, but if you're looking at
ebay.com, also look at ebay.co.uk - there's usually a
fair selection of "new old stock" (NOS) stuff for good
prices.

--
jc

Remove the -not from email

I'm interested in sources for some vintage parts... mostly European,
non Italian. Right now I'm looking for a cluster and a vintage Zefal
pump.

Well, Bicycle Classics springs to mind or American Cyclery in San Francisco but
there are many others.
Phil Brown

"- Bob -" wrote:

I have a Suntour 6sp
Winner Ultra 13-15-17-19-21-24 where the 13 cog screws directly onto
the body. I also have Winner Pro 6sp 13-14-15-17-19-21 on which the 13
cog is clearly screwed to the 14 cog.
From what you are saying, I can simply pull the 13/14 combo cog off
the 13-21 and screw them on the 13-24 in place of the 13 cog... and I
have a seven speed Ultra!
Have I missed something here? Are there differences in the Winner vs.
the Winner Pro sprockets that I've missed ? Are there any spacing
issues (not frame/axle but cog to cog) that I don't know about ?

Mark Janeba replied:

No, it won't work, because yes, there are spacing issues. The 13/14 6sp
cogs have a different built-in spacers than ultra cogs. I think the
13/14 combo may screw on with the 14 cog hard against your 15 cog, i.e.
with no intervening space.

Nope, any threaded sprocket in that position will need to have a
built-in spacer.

I'd bet that with a little ingenuity it will work fine.

The spacing won't be exact, but should be close enough. This stuff
isn't nearly as critical as many folks suppose. Since he already owns
the parts, might as well give it a try.

Sheldon "10-Speed Ergo, 6-Speed SunTour/Regina" Brown
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Sheldon Brown wrote:
Mark Janeba replied:
No, it won't work, because yes, there are spacing issues. The 13/14
6sp cogs have a different built-in spacers than ultra cogs. I think
the 13/14 combo may screw on with the 14 cog hard against your 15 cog,
i.e. with no intervening space.


Nope, any threaded sprocket in that position will need to have a
built-in spacer.

Agree on the built-in spacer, but on the sample I checked in the shop,
the integrated spacer on a 13T "E" cog slipped *under* the next larger
cog. There is a diameter incompatibility on the integrated spacers.
Specifically, the OD on the "E" cog's integrated spacer is 4.2 cm, the
OD on the "proper" "L" cog for this situation is 4.4 cm, and the ID of
the "T" cog they need to fit against is about 4.3 cm.

Never would have suspected this, until I tried it last night in the
shop. (Those SunTour guys were so clever!) Granted, he has an "X" cog,
not an "E" in this position (can't find my lone "X" to check) but as I
recall, the "in"side of the "X" cog is the same as that of the "E".

OK, to say this more clearly, let's call the three diameters on a winner
body "stages". The largest is always splined, for "A" cogs. The next
"stage 2" is threaded (or threaded AND splined on winner pro bodies),
then the final stage (#3) is a smaller-diameter thread with room for
only one cog or an assembly of two cogs threaded to each other.

As I see it [physically, freewheel-in-my-hand, that is], the "regular"
spacing 4th cog (counting #1 as largest cog) was designed to screw on
leaving a few threads on stage 2 exposed, and the 5th cog, threading
onto stage 3, is supposed to stop against the body where the diameter
increases.

On the other hand, the ultra 5th cog doesn't leave any threads exposed -
it "hangs out" just a tad past the end of stage 2 - and ultra cogs for
stage 3 have a larger diameter (4.4 cm) integrated spacer to stop
against the last stage-2 cog.

So when I tried the 13T "E" cog on an otherwise ultra-cogged freewheel,
the 13T cog's integrated spacer w/ 4.2 cm diameter slides under the
"over-hanging" stage 2 cog with 4.3 cm inner diameter, and the two cogs
came hard up against each other.

Mark "trying it was a good idea" Janeba

- Bob - wrote in message ...
On 20 Aug 2004 16:03:20 -0700, (Donald Gillies)
wrote:

As far as freewheels go, i prefer suntour ultra 6 and ultra 7
freewheels. Suntour freewheels are extremely durable, one body does
IT ALL, 5, 6, 6U, and 7U, and they are plentiful in black, silver,
gold, and are quite affordable ($20 - $30 NOS.)

Don:

You brought up a _very_ interesting point here. I have a Suntour 6sp
Winner Ultra 13-15-17-19-21-24 where the 13 cog screws directly onto
the body. I also have Winner Pro 6sp 13-14-15-17-19-21 on which
the 13 cog is clearly screwed to the 14 cog.

From what you are saying, I can simply pull the 13/14 combo cog off
the 13-21 and screw them on the 13-24 in place of the 13 cog... and
I have a seven speed Ultra!

Have I missed something here? Are there differences in the Winner vs.
the Winner Pro sprockets that I've missed ? Are there any spacing
issues (not frame/axle but cog to cog) that I don't know about ?

Make sure you use a chain whip, the new winner sprockets may snap a tooth if
you try and bodge the job.

Trevor

- Bob - wrote:
Mark/Muzi:

I'm starting to get this... a check with the
homemade-small-internal-gap-micrometer (drill bit) shows me that the
gaps on the non-Ultra appear to be relatively uniform and wider,
whereas the ultra has narrower gaps on all but the one smallest
cog gap (13-15) where is seems to be roughly the same as a non-Ultra
cog.

What I can't figure out without pulling the clusters apart is how much
of the gap is due to the spacers I can re-arrange and how much is due
to the built in spacers on the cogs that . So, questions:

- With what I have on hand, do I need to order a 13 and a 14 Ultra
or just one or the other ? Do I need any new spacers ?

A 14 "L" cog and a 13 "U" cog. Your 13T cog (which would be an "E") has
the wrong inner diameter to fit the 14L. No spacers required, they are
all built into these cogs.

- Are there differences in the Winner vs. Winner Pro bodies?

A plain "Winner" are really old and not likely what you have; a "New
Winner", the ones that were produced for many years, had adjustable
bearings (a gimmick, IMHO). The Winner Pro has the middle "stage" on
the body both threaded and splined; splined cogs were sold with the
winner pro, but it was backward-compatible with older threaded winner
cogs (and pro-compe and perfect cogs, too - SunTour was great for
inter-compatibility).

I think I
read that the intermediate sprockets are different but the 6/7 small
cogs are the same? ... so my plan to put the 13/14 on the Ultra should
work out as long as I don't start switching other cogs ?

Actually, most of the cogs besides the smallest ones are the same, the
*spacers* are different. The top few cogs (smallest ones) differ due to
integrated spacers and some diameter differences. See my other post for
why the 13/14 from a regular-6 won't work to make an ultra-7.

I had a look to see if there was an easy way to throw in a
not-designed-for spacer, but it didn't look feasible to me.

Regards,

Mark Janeba

- Bob - wrote in message ...
On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:31:10 +0100, "Trevor Jeffrey"
wrote:

Make sure you use a chain whip, the new winner sprockets may snap a tooth
if
you try and bodge the job.

Trevor


I definitely will... although I won't tell you how I make up my
own "whip", I might frighten some of the folks here.

While we're on the subject of width and freewheels, ... is an 8
speed freewheel basically an "ultra" spacing arrangement but now one
sprocket/spacer wider than a 7-speed? I've seen some Sachs 8 speeds
for sale - are they based on a 130mm design ?

I think this is correct, never examined an 8 speed because I thought it
would be too wide for numerous reasons, and unnecessary. Suntour AP seven
speed is 30mm right face to right face width. I usually term them as
compact.

Trevor