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#1
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Composite parts building.
Hey all,
I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing that is easier said than done. I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well: http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass. So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on. Experiences and testimonies anyone? |
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#2
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Composite parts building.
webhead wrote:
I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing that is easier said than done. I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Fiberglass is cheap, but it's horrible itchy stuff to work with. Kevlar is easier than carbon or glass, but it's expensive. A strong natural fiber like ramie might be good-- soft and relatively easy to work. Ramie is much stronger than linen (flax) or cotton. Either ramie or linen would be relatively easy to find as woven cloth for laying up a composite structure. So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on. I hope you've had a look at Damon Rinard's page on homebuilding carbon frames: http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/carbon_fiber.htm Chalo |
#3
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Composite parts building.
webhead Wrote: Hey all, I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing that is easier said than done. I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get the hang of it ...So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on. Pretty much all production of CF or FG items are done either AROUND a core (that may either be left in place or removed by various means) or IN a mold. So something like a drop handlebar is definitely going to be a challenge as a DIY project... Building your own TT helmet around a sacrifical core could probably be a good first project, or maybe a streamlined, weatherproof CF saddle "bag"? A tempo bar might also be reasonably within reach for a DIY project. -- dabac |
#4
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Composite parts building.
On Dec 5, 10:57 am, dabac dabac.314...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com wrote: webhead Wrote: Hey all, I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing that is easier said than done. I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get the hang of it ...So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on. Pretty much all production of CF or FG items are done either AROUND a core (that may either be left in place or removed by various means) or IN a mold. So something like a drop handlebar is definitely going to be a challenge as a DIY project... Building your own TT helmet around a sacrifical core could probably be a good first project, or maybe a streamlined, weatherproof CF saddle "bag"? A tempo bar might also be reasonably within reach for a DIY project. -- dabac Thats a good idea, a TT helmet crossed my mind as well. I though about making a wire mesh first (from something like chicken run fence wire mesh, thin wire big gaps) and drape my fiber around it in narrow ends, much like handlebar tape. That way I would have a form which would be hollow and lightweight. I saw that page from Damon Rinard but that's complex stuff to begin with. For instance I'm missing info on the usable polymers. Is an epoxy two compound resin the only polymer that's sufficient in terms of structural rigidity? I've known people to construct a boat hull with sheets of fiberglass and polyester coatings, sanding and smoothing it out in between layers but a boat hull is not a thin handlebar or frametube. I'll be sure to wear gloves and long sleeves when I should handle fiberglass webhead |
#5
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Composite parts building.
webhead Wrote: I though about making a wire mesh first (from something like chicken run fence wire mesh, thin wire big gaps) If you want to go that route there are better types of mesh available. Try a type used behind ventilator grilles to prevent rodents and bugs from entering for instance. There are several several different gauges and gap sizes available. It's not that easy to get such a design nice and symmetric though, at the very least you should consider adding some ribs and other braces for it to keep its shape during lay-up. webhead Wrote: .. and drape my fiber around it in narrow ends, much like handlebar tape. Although that would work it would lend itself to unnecessary weight in the finished item. In FG manufacture you need a certain overlap for good adhesion between layers, and that method would give more an excessive amount of overlap. As big as possible w/o wrinkling is the ticket. And I still think you'd be better off sculpting your helmet out of Styrofoam, sealing the surface against solvents and then doing your layup on that. It'll retain its shape far better and give you a better shot at coming out with a symmetrical product. webhead Wrote: ...For instance I'm missing info on the usable polymers. Is an epoxy two compound resin the only polymer that's sufficient in terms of structural rigidity? Rigidity is a joint characteristic of material properties and design features. There are lots of stuff out there that you can build strong enough components out of as long as you adapt the wall thicknesses, exterior dimensions (and perhaps internal bracers as well) to suit. But if you want a strength/weight ratio that makes it worthwhile to leave alloys behind then you're pretty much limited to the exotics. webhead Wrote: ...I've known people to construct a boat hull with sheets of fiberglass and polyester coatings, sanding and smoothing it out in between layers but a boat hull is not a thin handlebar or frametube. apparently you've never seen a racing yacht up close... But the thing is simply that for most people the weight/strength ratio of the material that goes into a boat isn't critical enough to merit the extra cost of going to CF and epoxy. OTOH FG and polyester can easily be shaped into double-curved surfaces, which is a feature that is quite desirable in boat building. webhead Wrote: ...I'll be sure to wear gloves and long sleeves when I should handle fiberglass. While that is a sensible thing it isn't the right priority. First protect your brain, then your hands. Get a GOOD mask, one capable of handling solvents and hydrocarbons. A simple dust filter is OK for the sanding but it's nowhere near enough for the actual resin work. -- dabac |
#6
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Composite parts building.
On Dec 5, 1:23 am, webhead wrote:
Hey all, I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing that is easier said than done. I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass. So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on. Experiences and testimonies anyone? you could also try bamboo and epoxies to build lets say a simple single speed bike. nothing fancy. check what calffee bikes did. it is pretty awesome http://www.calfeedesign.com/bamboo.htm carlos http://www.bikingthings.com |
#7
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Composite parts building.
webhead wrote:
Hey all, I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing that is easier said than done. I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well: http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass. So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on. Experiences and testimonies anyone? If you read the description, the "flax" is actually a flax fiber/CF mixture. A summary of current natural fiber composites: http://www.compositesworld.com/ct/is.../February/1183 A couple of descriptions of home-made CF frames: http://www.damonrinard.com/howibuil.htm http://www.bmeres.com/carbonframe1.htm Messing about with epoxy is a lot of fun (and really messy). I've not done CF (yet), but I've done a fair amount with glass (mostly boat building). Glass is cheap and relatively easy to work with, the main nastiness comes during sanding. Epoxy is much more expensive than polyester resin, but is easier to laminate. I've seen a variety of cloth/fibers used with resin, for non-structural almost anything goes, but for things like bike components fiber material and layup orientation become critical. There's tons of information on the web, Mr. "webhead", check it out -- but maybe your first application shouldn't be handlebars! |
#8
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Composite parts building.
On Dec 5, 8:51 am, Peter Cole wrote:
webhead wrote: Hey all, I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing that is easier said than done. I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well: http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass. So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on. Experiences and testimonies anyone? If you read the description, the "flax" is actually a flax fiber/CF mixture. A summary of current natural fiber composites:http://www.compositesworld.com/ct/is.../February/1183 A couple of descriptions of home-made CF frames:http://www.damonrinard.com/howibuil....rbonframe1.htm Messing about with epoxy is a lot of fun (and really messy). I've not done CF (yet), but I've done a fair amount with glass (mostly boat building). Glass is cheap and relatively easy to work with, the main nastiness comes during sanding. Epoxy is much more expensive than polyester resin, but is easier to laminate. I've seen a variety of cloth/fibers used with resin, for non-structural almost anything goes, but for things like bike components fiber material and layup orientation become critical. There's tons of information on the web, Mr. "webhead", check it out -- but maybe your first application shouldn't be handlebars!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Meres does a carbon/bamboo bike as well: http://www.bmeres.com/bambooframe.htm |
#9
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Composite parts building.
On Dec 5, 1:23 am, webhead wrote:
Hey all, I'm sort off drawn to the whole carbon frame building thing but doing that is easier said than done. I figured it's probably a bad idea to start messing with carbon cloth in the first place, it really expensive and doesn't handle too easy from what I've seen. I'd like to use a different kind of fiber to get the hang of it and maybe later use carbon cloth. Johan Musseeuw (former cyclist) started building frames using Flax fiber. I thought It was a mistake but it's not. It looks weird as well:http://www.museeuwbikes.be/images/article_la/58.jpg A lot of people seem to make boat/car/plane parts with fiberglass. So I'd like to start by building the most easy thing I can think of: a piece of tube and maybe a drop handlebar later on. Experiences and testimonies anyone? Fiberglass is cheap and easy to work with. I'd get really, really thin sheets of fiberglass cloth and some blocks of foam, and carve the shape of what I wanted into the foam. When you're happy with the mold, fiberglass over it. |
#10
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Composite parts building.
On Dec 5, 4:57 am, dabac
wrote: or maybe a streamlined, weatherproof CF saddle "bag"? I've worked with fiberglass in other situations, and have considered making something out of carbon fiber a few times. I never did for a variety of reasons, and the lack of need for anything in carbon that wouldn't be really difficult has always been one. You may have just inspired me... |
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