Mountain Bikers Try to Justify Illegal Trail-Building

In other words, illegal trail building is okay, but SHODDY illegal
trailbuilding gives mountain bikers a bad name!

Mike


To:
From: "Thom Iverson"
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:52:53 -0800
Subject: Grey Trails

This is a point I DEFINITELY agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People slapping down SHODDY gray trail and then walking away without
ANY
followup maintenance DOES get me torqued off. THAT gives a bad image
for
mtn biking.
IMHO

Thom I

From: "mwestra2"
Subject: Grey Trails
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:31:55 -0000

This is a great topic and I'd love to hear all sides. Here's my 2 Pesos
on Building Grey....

**AND** MAINTAIN WHAT YOU BUILD!! By yourself or with your crew or via
work parties. If you don't have the time to keep it maintained, you
shouldn't build it in the first place. The worst: finding a dangerous
rotting dilapidated eyesore of a ladder bridge out in the woods!


The Code of the Streets: Whatever you do, don't "rat" on your buddy,
even if he is doing something illegal!

Mike


From: "Ethan"
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:13:25 -0000
Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy

Hmm... if I had to break down into three groups, and then guess as to
the percentages of, American trails that were built by various
movements/entities, I'd have to guess the following:

5% -- the CCC
20% -- other government agencies, or at least groups with official
landowner/government approval
75% -- gray trails, built by unofficial, average Joes and Janes ....
and much of that by hunters, trappers, and other explorers, plus of
course the ancient/native inhabitants of the continent.

(I'd be very interested to seem to stats on this, if anyone could dig
them up somewhere.) Regardless tho, I'd definitley agree with what
someone said earlier in this thread about how "gray trails belong in
gray areas" -- lands that only have marginal (or temporary)
recreational access, period.

Anyway, on to recent events in the Cascade foothills... So Dave,
when you called the county folks to report the new trail you'd found,
I really hope you didn't mention that you'd *met* the trail builders,
and that they were mountain bikers. Cause that would of course be
incongruous with the overall goal that we all have to not portray
mountain bikers in a bad light.

And to all those who seek to "verbally educate" naughty rogue trail
builders or other people who are doing things you don't approve of,
always remember the age-old maxim, "It's not what you say, it's how-
you-say-it."

Since I wasn't there, Dave, I'm not sure what your tone/approach was
in educating these "evil-doers" (to borrow a term that our esteemed
president likes to use).

However, a few years ago, I was at a wintertime work party on the
Preston Trail and, at one point in the day, a couple of guys came
riding down the trail, past us. One of the crew leaders said to
them, in an angry, belligerent tone: "HEY YOU POACHERS, THIS TRAIL IS
CLOSED!!!" My jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I'd just
observed. How does this person, who also happens to be a board
member and one of the club's top, uh, "advocates", expect to attract
new members to the club and new trail gnomes to the trailwork
movement... when [he/she] talks like that? Unbelievable.

EE

From: "Brian"
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:08:26 -0800
Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy

Trails have always been developed for the same reason as long as man
has been on earth... necessity.
Lets face it, we need more trails, much much Much more. I say kudos to
pirate trails and kudos to those bitch about them, maybe after another
10 years of BS our county and state land managers will finely see that
there is a need for more access for cyclists, but dont hold your
breath. We will always be the red headded ******* step children of the
outdoor community... I say build them where they have a chance to last
and away from wet areas, but build them. Make the complainers, Tom
Murdochs and serria club members work to weed them out as they are
descoverd. Maybe they will get tired after a while.
Look at skate borders for example, they grind and destroy brickwork
and store fronts. After years and years of complaining and relentless,
non conforming skaters, we finely see skate parks poping up all over
the place. This group got exactly what they wanted by doing what they
wanted, where they wanted, when they wanted.
I'm not saying its cool to destory the environment we wish to enjoy, I
think most of us are environmentalists... Thats the whole point! We
want to see more birds, more trees, more creeks, more views, We just
want more. The building of "gray trails, pirate trails and illegal
trails" just goes to show that the slow turning wheels of politics,
talking and environmental impact studies is not working for some. I
know its not working for me, I dont build pirate or gray trails but I
understand them and I'll ride them in a heartbeat.
My $0.02

From: "art bbtc"
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:03:06 -0800
Subject: Op-Ed on gray trails vs official trails

Just a few comments-

Thanks Maartin for making all good points.

Novelty Hill was a battle we lost; the trails built there were despite
our efforts. The "paths" there would be a lot different had we
prevailed.

St. Ed is a good example of what this thread is about- Rampant illicit
trail building forcing greater scrutiny of the land manager and
resulting in removal of even the small log hops.

Tiger Mt.- The dinosaur teeth "trail work" is the unintended result of
well intentioned people putting rock in the trail outside of directed
workparties. It takes a lot of work to properly embed rock in the
tread so it is sustainable and fun to ride.

Colonnade will be a cool place to ride and it will highlight our
success, but more than that it will open the door to other
opportunities so that the future highlight of our success can be a
true Backcountry trail.

Definition of a grey trail- is it grey or gray?

-Art
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
...
In other words, illegal trail building is okay, but SHODDY illegal
trailbuilding gives mountain bikers a bad name!

Mike


To:
From: "Thom Iverson"
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:52:53 -0800
Subject: Grey Trails

This is a point I DEFINITELY agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People slapping down SHODDY gray trail and then walking away without
ANY
followup maintenance DOES get me torqued off. THAT gives a bad image
for
mtn biking.
IMHO

Thom I

From: "mwestra2"
Subject: Grey Trails
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:31:55 -0000

This is a great topic and I'd love to hear all sides. Here's my 2 Pesos
on Building Grey....

**AND** MAINTAIN WHAT YOU BUILD!! By yourself or with your crew or via
work parties. If you don't have the time to keep it maintained, you
shouldn't build it in the first place. The worst: finding a dangerous
rotting dilapidated eyesore of a ladder bridge out in the woods!


The Code of the Streets: Whatever you do, don't "rat" on your buddy,
even if he is doing something illegal!

Mike


From: "Ethan"
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:13:25 -0000
Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy

Hmm... if I had to break down into three groups, and then guess as to
the percentages of, American trails that were built by various
movements/entities, I'd have to guess the following:

5% -- the CCC
20% -- other government agencies, or at least groups with official
landowner/government approval
75% -- gray trails, built by unofficial, average Joes and Janes ....
and much of that by hunters, trappers, and other explorers, plus of
course the ancient/native inhabitants of the continent.

(I'd be very interested to seem to stats on this, if anyone could dig
them up somewhere.) Regardless tho, I'd definitley agree with what
someone said earlier in this thread about how "gray trails belong in
gray areas" -- lands that only have marginal (or temporary)
recreational access, period.

Anyway, on to recent events in the Cascade foothills... So Dave,
when you called the county folks to report the new trail you'd found,
I really hope you didn't mention that you'd *met* the trail builders,
and that they were mountain bikers. Cause that would of course be
incongruous with the overall goal that we all have to not portray
mountain bikers in a bad light.

And to all those who seek to "verbally educate" naughty rogue trail
builders or other people who are doing things you don't approve of,
always remember the age-old maxim, "It's not what you say, it's how-
you-say-it."

Since I wasn't there, Dave, I'm not sure what your tone/approach was
in educating these "evil-doers" (to borrow a term that our esteemed
president likes to use).

However, a few years ago, I was at a wintertime work party on the
Preston Trail and, at one point in the day, a couple of guys came
riding down the trail, past us. One of the crew leaders said to
them, in an angry, belligerent tone: "HEY YOU POACHERS, THIS TRAIL IS
CLOSED!!!" My jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I'd just
observed. How does this person, who also happens to be a board
member and one of the club's top, uh, "advocates", expect to attract
new members to the club and new trail gnomes to the trailwork
movement... when [he/she] talks like that? Unbelievable.

EE

From: "Brian"
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:08:26 -0800
Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy

Trails have always been developed for the same reason as long as man
has been on earth... necessity.
Lets face it, we need more trails, much much Much more. I say kudos to
pirate trails and kudos to those bitch about them, maybe after another
10 years of BS our county and state land managers will finely see that
there is a need for more access for cyclists, but dont hold your
breath. We will always be the red headded ******* step children of the
outdoor community... I say build them where they have a chance to last
and away from wet areas, but build them. Make the complainers, Tom
Murdochs and serria club members work to weed them out as they are
descoverd. Maybe they will get tired after a while.
Look at skate borders for example, they grind and destroy brickwork
and store fronts. After years and years of complaining and relentless,
non conforming skaters, we finely see skate parks poping up all over
the place. This group got exactly what they wanted by doing what they
wanted, where they wanted, when they wanted.
I'm not saying its cool to destory the environment we wish to enjoy, I
think most of us are environmentalists... Thats the whole point! We
want to see more birds, more trees, more creeks, more views, We just
want more. The building of "gray trails, pirate trails and illegal
trails" just goes to show that the slow turning wheels of politics,
talking and environmental impact studies is not working for some. I
know its not working for me, I dont build pirate or gray trails but I
understand them and I'll ride them in a heartbeat.
My $0.02

From: "art bbtc"
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:03:06 -0800
Subject: Op-Ed on gray trails vs official trails

Just a few comments-

Thanks Maartin for making all good points.

Novelty Hill was a battle we lost; the trails built there were despite
our efforts. The "paths" there would be a lot different had we
prevailed.

St. Ed is a good example of what this thread is about- Rampant illicit
trail building forcing greater scrutiny of the land manager and
resulting in removal of even the small log hops.

Tiger Mt.- The dinosaur teeth "trail work" is the unintended result of
well intentioned people putting rock in the trail outside of directed
workparties. It takes a lot of work to properly embed rock in the
tread so it is sustainable and fun to ride.

Colonnade will be a cool place to ride and it will highlight our
success, but more than that it will open the door to other
opportunities so that the future highlight of our success can be a
true Backcountry trail.

Definition of a grey trail- is it grey or gray?

-Art
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are
fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:00:31 GMT, "JP" wrote:


"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message
.. .
In other words, illegal trail building is okay, but SHODDY illegal
trailbuilding gives mountain bikers a bad name!

Mike


To:
From: "Thom Iverson"
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:52:53 -0800
Subject: Grey Trails

This is a point I DEFINITELY agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People slapping down SHODDY gray trail and then walking away without
ANY
followup maintenance DOES get me torqued off. THAT gives a bad image
for
mtn biking.
IMHO

Thom I

From: "mwestra2"
Subject: Grey Trails
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:31:55 -0000

This is a great topic and I'd love to hear all sides. Here's my 2 Pesos
on Building Grey....

**AND** MAINTAIN WHAT YOU BUILD!! By yourself or with your crew or via
work parties. If you don't have the time to keep it maintained, you
shouldn't build it in the first place. The worst: finding a dangerous
rotting dilapidated eyesore of a ladder bridge out in the woods!


The Code of the Streets: Whatever you do, don't "rat" on your buddy,
even if he is doing something illegal!

Mike


From: "Ethan"
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:13:25 -0000
Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy

Hmm... if I had to break down into three groups, and then guess as to
the percentages of, American trails that were built by various
movements/entities, I'd have to guess the following:

5% -- the CCC
20% -- other government agencies, or at least groups with official
landowner/government approval
75% -- gray trails, built by unofficial, average Joes and Janes ....
and much of that by hunters, trappers, and other explorers, plus of
course the ancient/native inhabitants of the continent.

(I'd be very interested to seem to stats on this, if anyone could dig
them up somewhere.) Regardless tho, I'd definitley agree with what
someone said earlier in this thread about how "gray trails belong in
gray areas" -- lands that only have marginal (or temporary)
recreational access, period.

Anyway, on to recent events in the Cascade foothills... So Dave,
when you called the county folks to report the new trail you'd found,
I really hope you didn't mention that you'd *met* the trail builders,
and that they were mountain bikers. Cause that would of course be
incongruous with the overall goal that we all have to not portray
mountain bikers in a bad light.

And to all those who seek to "verbally educate" naughty rogue trail
builders or other people who are doing things you don't approve of,
always remember the age-old maxim, "It's not what you say, it's how-
you-say-it."

Since I wasn't there, Dave, I'm not sure what your tone/approach was
in educating these "evil-doers" (to borrow a term that our esteemed
president likes to use).

However, a few years ago, I was at a wintertime work party on the
Preston Trail and, at one point in the day, a couple of guys came
riding down the trail, past us. One of the crew leaders said to
them, in an angry, belligerent tone: "HEY YOU POACHERS, THIS TRAIL IS
CLOSED!!!" My jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I'd just
observed. How does this person, who also happens to be a board
member and one of the club's top, uh, "advocates", expect to attract
new members to the club and new trail gnomes to the trailwork
movement... when [he/she] talks like that? Unbelievable.

EE

From: "Brian"
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:08:26 -0800
Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy

Trails have always been developed for the same reason as long as man
has been on earth... necessity.
Lets face it, we need more trails, much much Much more. I say kudos to
pirate trails and kudos to those bitch about them, maybe after another
10 years of BS our county and state land managers will finely see that
there is a need for more access for cyclists, but dont hold your
breath. We will always be the red headded ******* step children of the
outdoor community... I say build them where they have a chance to last
and away from wet areas, but build them. Make the complainers, Tom
Murdochs and serria club members work to weed them out as they are
descoverd. Maybe they will get tired after a while.
Look at skate borders for example, they grind and destroy brickwork
and store fronts. After years and years of complaining and relentless,
non conforming skaters, we finely see skate parks poping up all over
the place. This group got exactly what they wanted by doing what they
wanted, where they wanted, when they wanted.
I'm not saying its cool to destory the environment we wish to enjoy, I
think most of us are environmentalists... Thats the whole point! We
want to see more birds, more trees, more creeks, more views, We just
want more. The building of "gray trails, pirate trails and illegal
trails" just goes to show that the slow turning wheels of politics,
talking and environmental impact studies is not working for some. I
know its not working for me, I dont build pirate or gray trails but I
understand them and I'll ride them in a heartbeat.
My $0.02

From: "art bbtc"
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:03:06 -0800
Subject: Op-Ed on gray trails vs official trails

Just a few comments-

Thanks Maartin for making all good points.

Novelty Hill was a battle we lost; the trails built there were despite
our efforts. The "paths" there would be a lot different had we
prevailed.

St. Ed is a good example of what this thread is about- Rampant illicit
trail building forcing greater scrutiny of the land manager and
resulting in removal of even the small log hops.

Tiger Mt.- The dinosaur teeth "trail work" is the unintended result of
well intentioned people putting rock in the trail outside of directed
workparties. It takes a lot of work to properly embed rock in the
tread so it is sustainable and fun to ride.

Colonnade will be a cool place to ride and it will highlight our
success, but more than that it will open the door to other
opportunities so that the future highlight of our success can be a
true Backcountry trail.

Definition of a grey trail- is it grey or gray?

-Art
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are
fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande


Except that this was all written by mountain bikers!
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Thanks, Mikey, for highlighting the efforts of off-road cyclists to police
the activity of rogue trails and illegal riding. The post you made shows
great cooperation and communication among responsible cyclists to work
within the system of guidelines.
It is these efforts that have been beneficial in dispelling the
misconceptions of non-cyclists.

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:52:34 -0500, "S Curtiss"
wrote:

Thanks, Mikey, for highlighting the efforts of off-road cyclists to police
the activity of rogue trails and illegal riding. The post you made shows
great cooperation and communication among responsible cyclists to work
within the system of guidelines.
It is these efforts that have been beneficial in dispelling the
misconceptions of non-cyclists.

I guess you didn't read it, because it said that mountain bikers
support illegal trailbuilding.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

I read a discussion on curbing the illegal trails. I also read a post
encouraging trails at any opportunity followed by a post on proper
discussion with land managers for trail building.

Hardly all negative as you attempt to portray. Actually, it is mostly
positive.