Spoke washers

I'd appreciate any recommendations and insight from experienced wheel
builders on this subject.

A couple of years ago I built up a new rear wheel on a well-used Campy
Record hub. The spoke holes in the flanges were slightly enlarged
(elongated) from prior use.

I used new spokes, took care to lace the wheel in the same pattern and
orientation, tensioned and stress relieved properly, etc. Still, I've
had three spoke failures (one DS and two NDS), roughly one every 2500
miles. I've never broken spokes before on one of my own wheels, and
assume it's because the heads have more room to move in the flange
holes and thus fatigue.

I've read about using small washers under the spoke heads to solve this
problem. The question is, WHAT KIND OF WASHERS TO USE, AND WHERE TO
GET 'EM? Someone suggested pop-rivet backup washers, but the common
1/8" size doesn't seem to fit a DT or Wheelsmith spoke head quite
tightly enough. By eyeball, I'd guess the ideal hole size should be ~3
mm, but I've had no luck finding washers near that size.

Thanks!

(delete after first com)

Mike Yankee wrote:

A couple of years ago I built up a new rear wheel on a well-used Campy Record hub.


Are they possibly the ill-fated long-elbow DT spokes? See:
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm

If they are, they will definitely benefit from spoke washers.

Art Harris

On 9 Aug 2005 13:31:51 -0700, "Mike Yankee"
wrote:

I'd appreciate any recommendations and insight from experienced wheel
builders on this subject.

A couple of years ago I built up a new rear wheel on a well-used Campy
Record hub. The spoke holes in the flanges were slightly enlarged
(elongated) from prior use.

I used new spokes, took care to lace the wheel in the same pattern and
orientation, tensioned and stress relieved properly, etc. Still, I've
had three spoke failures (one DS and two NDS), roughly one every 2500
miles. I've never broken spokes before on one of my own wheels, and
assume it's because the heads have more room to move in the flange
holes and thus fatigue.

I've read about using small washers under the spoke heads to solve this
problem. The question is, WHAT KIND OF WASHERS TO USE, AND WHERE TO
GET 'EM? Someone suggested pop-rivet backup washers, but the common
1/8" size doesn't seem to fit a DT or Wheelsmith spoke head quite
tightly enough. By eyeball, I'd guess the ideal hole size should be ~3
mm, but I've had no luck finding washers near that size.

Thanks!

(delete after first com)

Dear Mike,

Gerd Schraner praises washers highly on page 42 of "The Art
of Wheelbuilding":

"In order to prevent the play which causes damage to the
spokes, professional wheelbuilders use special brass washers
(DT Proline), and we always use them when the difference
between the diameter of the spoke and the diameter of the
hub's spoke hole is greater than 0.3 mm. Of course, it is
not necessary to measure this every time a spoke is
installed. Just insert a spoke into the hub adn move it to
se if any play can be detected (tactile test)."

Here's a page with 4 versions of spoke washers for sale:

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...poke%20Washers

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel writes:

Gerd Schraner praises washers highly on page 42 of "The Art
of Wheelbuilding":

# "In order to prevent the play which causes damage to the spokes,
# professional wheelbuilders use special brass washers (DT Proline),
# and we always use them when the difference between the diameter of
# the spoke and the diameter of the hub's spoke hole is greater than
# 0.3 mm. Of course, it is not necessary to measure this every time a
# spoke is installed. Just insert a spoke into the hub and move it to
# see if any play can be detected (tactile test)."

Does he explain how "play" exists on a tensioned spoke and how that
causes failures? How does a washer give a spoke elbow improved
support in a flange?

I'm not one to take these things on faith. I prefer to see
justification for such rituals and beliefs.

Here's a page with 4 versions of spoke washers for sale:

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...poke%20Washers

Jobst Brandt

under a hd touring load at 5000 miles, a deore lx rear hub wears and
then respokes to a length 2-3mm shorter primarily from hole elongation.
I write primarily caws i can't find another caws.
i file the holes smooth with spoke threads and a narrow knife
blade/flat pick.
i do not experience spoke failures after switching to DT from generic
and lubing the spoke holes before and after placing spokes in-with
finish line teflon wax lube.
i place the wheel horizontal on a 5 gal drywall bucket and drip lube
onto the holes. inside holes are lubed by dribbling lube onto a spoke
whose end termnated at a hole. this is done under a HOT sun and allowed
to dry before turning over and doing the other side. the complete hub
is then coated hole to hole with lube preventing dirt entry.
the hole wear and elongation, hub hole angle greater than stock, does
not produce higher incidences of spoke breakage. nada.

wrote:
Carl Fogel writes:


Gerd Schraner praises washers highly on page 42 of "The Art
of Wheelbuilding":


# "In order to prevent the play which causes damage to the spokes,
# professional wheelbuilders use special brass washers (DT Proline),
# and we always use them when the difference between the diameter of
# the spoke and the diameter of the hub's spoke hole is greater than
# 0.3 mm. Of course, it is not necessary to measure this every time a
# spoke is installed. Just insert a spoke into the hub and move it to
# see if any play can be detected (tactile test)."

Does he explain how "play" exists on a tensioned spoke and how that
causes failures? How does a washer give a spoke elbow improved
support in a flange?

I'm not one to take these things on faith. I prefer to see
justification for such rituals and beliefs.

eh? you can see that the spoke loading at the elbow is non-axial,
right? by definition, that will cause "play". /you/ usually refer to
it as "fretting". adding a washer so the degree of non-axial overhang
is reduced /will/ reduce play, even if it is by only a small amount.

how you can find this phenomenon to be "obvious" in the context of
pedals, bb spindles, etc, but not in a spoke loading situation is
somewhat, er, "surprising".



Here's a page with 4 versions of spoke washers for sale:


http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...poke%20Washers

Jobst Brandt

Mike Yankee wrote:
I'd appreciate any recommendations and insight from experienced wheel
builders on this subject.

A couple of years ago I built up a new rear wheel on a well-used Campy
Record hub. The spoke holes in the flanges were slightly enlarged
(elongated) from prior use.

I used new spokes, took care to lace the wheel in the same pattern and
orientation, tensioned and stress relieved properly, etc. Still, I've
had three spoke failures (one DS and two NDS), roughly one every 2500
miles. I've never broken spokes before on one of my own wheels, and
assume it's because the heads have more room to move in the flange
holes and thus fatigue.

I've read about using small washers under the spoke heads to solve this
problem. The question is, WHAT KIND OF WASHERS TO USE, AND WHERE TO
GET 'EM?

Quality Bike parts has them I use them on reused, older hubs with
longish spoke holes or with lower end hubs that have largere than 2.3mm
holes in them(First gen Powertap was a good example of this).

They are brass, a good tool to use to tighten the spokes up in the hub
flange.

regradless of what Jobst says(he says they are useless..)

On 9 Aug 2005 15:40:15 -0700, wrote:

i place the wheel horizontal on a 5 gal drywall bucket and drip lube
onto the holes. inside holes are lubed by dribbling lube onto a spoke
whose end termnated at a hole. this is done under a HOT sun and allowed
to dry before turning over and doing the other side. the complete hub
is then coated hole to hole with lube preventing dirt entry.
the hole wear and elongation, hub hole angle greater than stock, does
not produce higher incidences of spoke breakage. nada.

"and then walk away quick, eleven steps, with your eyes shut, and then
turn around three times and walk home without speaking to anybody.
Because if you speak the charm's busted." - Tom Sawyer

-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
http://www.businesscycles.com

right. brass. sliding brass. lubeville. the extra surface allows spoke
head and bend movement thru it's new passageway whereas if the new
spoke gets pinned down, it may snap bedding in.
thus teflon and wax!!
and keep a stiff upper there larry.