Strange Recumbent

Well here goes my first post to this group. I have been an advid
recumbent rider for over 12 years now. In that time I have built 3 of
my own bicycles. Two of them have been Front Wheel Drive Rear Wheel
Steering recumbents. This is an invatation to view my video on You
Tube or my blog to see this strange recumbent. I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you. Dennis Renner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMA7CTfbpwo

http://recumbentsartandpoems.blogspot.com/

Denrnr wrote:
Well here goes my first post to this group. I have been an advid
recumbent rider for over 12 years now. In that time I have built 3 of
my own bicycles. Two of them have been Front Wheel Drive Rear Wheel
Steering recumbents. This is an invatation to view my video on You
Tube or my blog to see this strange recumbent. I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you. Dennis Renner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMA7CTfbpwo

http://recumbentsartandpoems.blogspot.com/

how well does it handle in high speed, and what is high speed?

How well does it to slow speed turning.

"Denrnr" wrote in message
...
Well here goes my first post to this group. I have been an advid
recumbent rider for over 12 years now. In that time I have built 3 of
my own bicycles. Two of them have been Front Wheel Drive Rear Wheel
Steering recumbents. This is an invatation to view my video on You
Tube or my blog to see this strange recumbent. I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you. Dennis Renner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMA7CTfbpwo

http://recumbentsartandpoems.blogspot.com/

Most front wheel drive recumbents that I have seen were real clunkers, but
yours obviously is anything but. It seems counter intuitive to have to steer
the rear wheel. I don't know if I could ever learn to do that. I wonder what
are the advantages of a rear steer if any. My main concern with any kind of
bicycle is steering control. If I don't have that, I don't have anything.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On Jan 2, 11:37*am, Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Denrnr wrote:
Well here goes my first post to this group. *I have been an advid
recumbent rider for over 12 years now. *In that time I have built 3 of
my own bicycles. *Two of them have been Front Wheel Drive Rear Wheel
Steering recumbents. *This is an invatation to view my video on You
Tube or my blog to see this strange recumbent. *I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you. *Dennis Renner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMA7CTfbpwo

http://recumbentsartandpoems.blogspot.com/

how well does it handle in high speed, and what is high speed?

How well does it to slow speed turning.

The first attempt at this design its slow speed handling was terrible
and high speed handling was scarry. I went back to the drawing board
and studied the handling. The result was a change in the steering
head tube angle. The results were just what I wanted. It has very
good slow speed handling and high speed is great and I feel that it
is under perfect control all the time. I have ridden this bike
against standard up rights and it blows their doors off particularlly
in climbing. I would not say it is as fast as my Fujin lowracer but
does very well. It is not as areodynamic as my lowracer or my
highracer. I have had up to 45 mph and it handles fine with very
little pedal steer. I think the video really shows how well this bike
handles at slow speeds.

On Jan 2, 1:08*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
"Denrnr" wrote in message

...

Well here goes my first post to this group. *I have been an advid
recumbent rider for over 12 years now. *In that time I have built 3 of
my own bicycles. *Two of them have been Front Wheel Drive Rear Wheel
Steering recumbents. *This is an invatation to view my video on You
Tube or my blog to see this strange recumbent. *I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you. *Dennis Renner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMA7CTfbpwo

http://recumbentsartandpoems.blogspot.com/

Most front wheel drive recumbents that I have seen were real clunkers, but
yours obviously is anything but. It seems counter intuitive to have to steer
the rear wheel. I don't know if I could ever learn to do that. I wonder what
are the advantages of a rear steer if any. My main concern with any kind of
bicycle is steering control. If I don't have that, I don't have anything.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Yes I agree completely. My first attemp with this design was very
disappointing. It had a very poor turning radius and high speed
handling was scarry. I rebuilt the frame changing the steering head
tube angle and building new handle bars for it. I had done a lot of
study before I made my second attemp . The second frame geometry did
the trick. The bike handles just as I had hoped it would. It has
great slow speed handling now and a very good turning radius. The
highspeed handling is great. The really surprising thing is how well
it climbs. I have ridden it against up rights on climbs and it runs
off and leaves them. I think that is one of the advantages of this
design is that it is very efficient in energy delivery to the front
wheel removing most all the pedal steer, that so many front wheel
drives contend with. It did take a little learning to ride it at
first but now it feels as natural as any of my other recumbents.

Denrnr wrote:
On Jan 2, 11:37 am, Jon Bendtsen wrote:
Denrnr wrote:
Well here goes my first post to this group. I have been an advid
recumbent rider for over 12 years now. In that time I have built 3 of
my own bicycles. Two of them have been Front Wheel Drive Rear Wheel
Steering recumbents. This is an invatation to view my video on You
Tube or my blog to see this strange recumbent. I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you. Dennis Renner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMA7CTfbpwo
http://recumbentsartandpoems.blogspot.com/
how well does it handle in high speed, and what is high speed?

How well does it to slow speed turning.

The first attempt at this design its slow speed handling was terrible
and high speed handling was scarry. I went back to the drawing board
and studied the handling. The result was a change in the steering
head tube angle. The results were just what I wanted. It has very
good slow speed handling and high speed is great and I feel that it
is under perfect control all the time. I have ridden this bike
against standard up rights and it blows their doors off particularlly
in climbing. I would not say it is as fast as my Fujin lowracer but
does very well. It is not as areodynamic as my lowracer or my
highracer. I have had up to 45 mph and it handles fine with very
little pedal steer. I think the video really shows how well this bike
handles at slow speeds.

It is the hole rear that turns, and not just the wheel, right?

Have you considered making a velomobile?

Denrnr wrote:
Well here goes my first post to this group. I have been an advid
recumbent rider for over 12 years now. In that time I have built 3 of
my own bicycles. Two of them have been Front Wheel Drive Rear Wheel
Steering recumbents. This is an invatation to view my video on You
Tube or my blog to see this strange recumbent. I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you.

Impressive!

Comments I'd seen before from Mike Burrows suggested that while FWD/RW
steer was great on paper in practice the results were hard to handle,
and your experience with the Mk 1 underlines that... but the newer
version seems to have it licked with suitable tweeking of the geometry.

Wish I had that sort of engineering skill, and good luck with it!

Happy New Year,
Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Denrnr wrote:
...
I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you. Dennis Renner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMA7CTfbpwo


The problem with rear-wheel-steer designs is that (so far) nobody has
found a way to make them exhibit positive stability. Many home-built
examples are quite negatively-stable, and the best ones can only manage
neutral stability.

The easiest test for positive stability is if you can ride it and steer
just by leaning, without your hands on the handlebars.

It is true that many front-steering commercially-made recumbents are
difficult to ride no-handed, but that is more related to the long/heavy
tiller effect of the handlebars mounted than with the steering geometry
itself being bad. If you go fast enough and "sit up" on the seat (so you
can lean your upper-body left and right) you can usually demonstrate
that riding no-handed is possible. As you go faster (on a
conventional-steer, positive rake/trail bike) it even gets easier, as
the stability increases with speed.

The danger of a non-positive steering setup increases as your speed
increases. If you keep your speeds low, you may never notice an issue.
The danger however is that when people /do/ find out their RWS bikes
(and trikes!) aren't stable, they usually find out *very* *suddenly*....
Going fast down a hill when they hit a bump, or going fast around a turn.

{-I find it particularly odd that people can design (or propose) a
steering system that they know would be too unstable for a /bicycle/,
yet they think if they stick it on a TRIKE, then it's good enough
because "a trike can't fall over".-}

The reason that commercial companies don't produce center- and
rear-wheel steer bicycles isn't that they're not smart enough to think
of it--it's that under strict testing, the steering instability is often
demonstratable. The Eric Wannee web pages has a couple pages of two and
three-wheel commercial examples that proceeded anyway, came and soon went.
http://wannee.nl/hpv/abt/e-index.htm
~

"DougC" wrote in message
...
Denrnr wrote:
...
I would love to hear
comments back from you as to what your thoughts are on this design.
Look forward to hearing from you. Dennis Renner.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMA7CTfbpwo


The problem with rear-wheel-steer designs is that (so far) nobody has
found a way to make them exhibit positive stability. Many home-built
examples are quite negatively-stable, and the best ones can only manage
neutral stability.

The easiest test for positive stability is if you can ride it and steer
just by leaning, without your hands on the handlebars.

It is true that many front-steering commercially-made recumbents are
difficult to ride no-handed, but that is more related to the long/heavy
tiller effect of the handlebars mounted than with the steering geometry
itself being bad. If you go fast enough and "sit up" on the seat (so you
can lean your upper-body left and right) you can usually demonstrate that
riding no-handed is possible. As you go faster (on a conventional-steer,
positive rake/trail bike) it even gets easier, as the stability increases
with speed.

The danger of a non-positive steering setup increases as your speed
increases. If you keep your speeds low, you may never notice an issue. The
danger however is that when people /do/ find out their RWS bikes (and
trikes!) aren't stable, they usually find out *very* *suddenly*.... Going
fast down a hill when they hit a bump, or going fast around a turn.

{-I find it particularly odd that people can design (or propose) a
steering system that they know would be too unstable for a /bicycle/, yet
they think if they stick it on a TRIKE, then it's good enough because "a
trike can't fall over".-}

The reason that commercial companies don't produce center- and rear-wheel
steer bicycles isn't that they're not smart enough to think of it--it's
that under strict testing, the steering instability is often
demonstratable. The Eric Wannee web pages has a couple pages of two and
three-wheel commercial examples that proceeded anyway, came and soon went.
http://wannee.nl/hpv/abt/e-index.htm

A really fascinating web site. I recall from the pages of RCN many years ago
that there was a Canadian recumbent trike that was front wheel drive rear
steer. It was expensive and no one could figure out what the advantages were
of such a trike. It seemed unduly complicated to no purpose. It never sold
well and soon went out of business.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:5PCdnY25VrpjLvnUnZ2dnUVZ_ozinZ2d@prairiewave. com...
[...]

http://wannee.nl/hpv/abt/e-index.htm

A really fascinating web site. I recall from the pages of RCN many years
ago that there was a Canadian recumbent trike that was front wheel drive
rear steer. It was expensive and no one could figure out what the
advantages were of such a trike. It seemed unduly complicated to no
purpose. It never sold well and soon went out of business.

The above recumbent trike was the Thebis, made in British Columbia. It was
rear wheel driven and rear wheel steered and not front wheel driven. Thought
I had better correct myself before Mr. Sherman read it as he will know about
these type of oddball recumbent trikes.

http://wannee.nl/hpv/abt/e-abd.htm

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota