Fun with red light runners (vehicles)

Yesterday I was in San Francisco. Usually, when a light turns red, three
or four cars run the red light. But yesterday me, and a group of others,
stepped off the curb the instant we got the walk signal and I held up my
hand and yelled "STOP" and made the three cars that were running the red
light stop (we were crossing on the far side of the intersection of
which they were running the red light). They stopped, blocking the whole
intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene
gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.

On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:35:09 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
Yesterday I was in San Francisco. Usually, when a light turns red, three
or four cars run the red light. But yesterday me, and a group of others,
stepped off the curb the instant we got the walk signal and I held up my
hand and yelled "STOP" and made the three cars that were running the red
light stop (we were crossing on the far side of the intersection of
which they were running the red light). They stopped, blocking the whole
intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene
gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.

"I'm walkin' here!"

I am all for pedestrians right-of-way in any reasonable circumstance;
and I kind of like the idea of disrupting the cager mentality that
they own the road, but...

What you're describing sounds kind of illegal, somehow - regardless
of the signal light's status. ... Oh, "the far side... they were
running the red" - yeah, that definitely sounds illegal.

Not that the letter of the law carries much weight with me, but I
know some folks make a fuss about being law abiding that way.

I prefer to stand on the corner and flip them off.

On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:56:15 PM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:
On Thursday, June 5, 2014 4:35:09 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:

Yesterday I was in San Francisco. Usually, when a light turns red, three

or four cars run the red light. But yesterday me, and a group of others,

stepped off the curb the instant we got the walk signal and I held up my

hand and yelled "STOP" and made the three cars that were running the red

light stop (we were crossing on the far side of the intersection of

which they were running the red light). They stopped, blocking the whole

intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene

gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.



"I'm walkin' here!"



I am all for pedestrians right-of-way in any reasonable circumstance;

and I kind of like the idea of disrupting the cager mentality that

they own the road, but...



What you're describing sounds kind of illegal, somehow - regardless

of the signal light's status. ... Oh, "the far side... they were

running the red" - yeah, that definitely sounds illegal.


By this I mean it sounds (like it ought to be) definitely
illegal to just bound into the street when it's apparent
(the cars are already "running the red") that imminently
approaching traffic does not intend to stop.



Not that the letter of the law carries much weight with me, but I

know some folks make a fuss about being law abiding that way.



I prefer to stand on the corner and flip them off.

Per sms:
They stopped, blocking the whole
intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene
gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.

40 years ago when I was living in Hawaii, something like that could get
you cuffed around in the best case, hurt in the worst case.

In Waikiki the cops wrote tickets to any cars crossing a pedestrian zone
when a pedistrian was in the zone.... so people would slam on their
brakes as soon as you stepped off the curb... but, being Hawaiians,
they did not take that inconvenience passively.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 6/5/2014 10:53 PM, Dan O wrote:

By this I mean it sounds (like it ought to be) definitely
illegal to just bound into the street when it's apparent
(the cars are already "running the red") that imminently
approaching traffic does not intend to stop.

The question to ask is "once a pedestrian has a "Walk" signal, how long,
if at all, are they legally obligated to wait on the curb for vehicles
running the red light?" In the incident I described, these red light
running vehicles had not already entered the intersection, they were
continuing to enter the intersection long after the light had turned red.

You might never get across the street in San Francisco if you were not a
bit aggressive. From illegal right-on-red to the blatant serial red
light running, red light runners could be going through an intersection
for the entire duration of the "Walk" signal

The authorities rail against jay-walking, but in reality it may be
safer. A jaywalker has no expectation that vehicles will stop. Someone
crossing at a controlled intersection often naively expects that it's
safe to go when they have the right of way. Also, a jaywalker crossing a
street between intersections is only looking for traffic from two
directions. When you cross at an intersection you have traffic from four
directions to worry about (sometimes more than four directions).

At the traffic light closest to my house, an intersection that I go
through frequently, on bike, foot, and in a motor vehicle, there are
routinely five or six cars that enter the intersection after they have a
red light (including city buses doing it as a rule, not an exception).
It's so routine to run this light that I'm scared that when I do stop
that I'll cause a pile-up behind me from a line of cars that expect me
to run the red light. There are two left turn lanes, and I've stopped
when the light turns red and had the car behind me switch to the other
left turn lane to run the red light.

This is a three-way light and if I'm the lead vehicle at the red light,
when it turns green I immediately start slowly moving into the
intersection which discourages more vehicles from running the red light.
Jack-rabbit starts are extremely dangerous these days because just
because you have a green light does not mean that there will not be five
or six more cars coming through the intersection against the light.

We have no police department in the city where I live, law-enforcement
is by the county sheriff, and the city does not pay for much enforcement.

On Friday, June 6, 2014 6:23:52 AM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per sms:

They stopped, blocking the whole

intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene

gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.



40 years ago when I was living in Hawaii, something like that could get

you cuffed around in the best case, hurt in the worst case.



In Waikiki the cops wrote tickets to any cars crossing a pedestrian zone

when a pedistrian was in the zone.... so people would slam on their

brakes as soon as you stepped off the curb... but, being Hawaiians,

they did not take that inconvenience passively.

Portland drivers are nice but incompetent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8mRd-Yh-Fc We get our share of light runners, but there is a freakish adherence to the crosswalk law downtown. Pedestrians just get close to a crosswalk, and cars slam on their brakes. This is tough for me since there are about a zillion crosswalks on my route down SW 4th -- and places where there is a crosswalk practically next to (say 30 feet) from another crosswalk. It's bizarre. These are all mid-block and not at lights, although some are right next to intersections. I would think that for traffic flow, you would make the pedestrians walk maybe fifty feet to the nearest light.

On 6/6/2014 9:23 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per sms:
They stopped, blocking the whole
intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene
gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.

40 years ago when I was living in Hawaii, something like that could get
you cuffed around in the best case, hurt in the worst case.

In Waikiki the cops wrote tickets to any cars crossing a pedestrian zone
when a pedistrian was in the zone.... so people would slam on their
brakes as soon as you stepped off the curb... but, being Hawaiians,
they did not take that inconvenience passively.

At one intersection near our university, it was common for cars to cut
off pedestrians that way, despite the "Yield to pedestrians in crosswalk
sign" - redundant, given the pedestrian green, but placed for emphasis.

My philosophy was the same as with motorists in a narrow lane. I made
sure I was directly and obviously in their way. They always stopped.

There was one incident where a young woman used her car to rush towards
me, stopped short and blared the horn. I continued walking across at a
normal pace. She accelerated as soon as I was clear, missing me by
inches, but my briefcase "accidentally" hit her rear fender. She
slammed on the brakes and opened her driver's door to yell at me, at
which point another driver opened his window to yell at _her_!

I turned her license number in, and was told the cops couldn't ticket
her, since they didn't observe the incident; but they would certainly
pay her a visit.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 6/6/2014 6:23 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per sms:
They stopped, blocking the whole
intersection, and they were furious, screaming and making obscene
gestures. Too bad there was no cop there. You can't block the box.

40 years ago when I was living in Hawaii, something like that could get
you cuffed around in the best case, hurt in the worst case.

In Waikiki the cops wrote tickets to any cars crossing a pedestrian zone
when a pedistrian was in the zone.... so people would slam on their
brakes as soon as you stepped off the curb... but, being Hawaiians,
they did not take that inconvenience passively.

This used to be the case in some cities in Southern California. When I
first visited, in 1978, my old college roommate said "watch this" and he
stepped off the curb in Huntington Beach and the cars stopped very
quickly. I don't know if this still is the case.

Per jbeattie:
We get our share of light runners..

Ever since our corner of Pennsylvania went over to weirdly-long red
light times and ridiculous periods of all lights being red, the number
of people I see running red lights has gone way up. I don't mean
furtively sliding though... I mean barreling into those suckers with the
pedal to the metal - accelerating as soon as the light turns yellow and
speeding up as a green light gets "old"...

I guess that almost any change in traffic management shows a decrease in
accidents for a certain period of time.

But I think the real tale gets told after drivers have learned to
discount the changes and I have to wonder how the accident stats look a
couple years later.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 6/6/2014 2:44 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
ht gets "old"...

I guess that almost any change in traffic management shows a decrease in
accidents for a certain period of time.

But I think the real tale gets told after drivers have learned to
discount the changes and I have to wonder how the accident stats look a
couple years later.

In his book _Risk_, John Adams noted the effect of "black spot"
campaigns in Britain. While I'm not real familiar with them, the
campaigns seem to be based on noting where more-than-average crashes
occur, and doing something to improve the location - adding signals,
adding lanes, redesigning intersections, whatever.

Adams noted that in general, crashes decrease at the "black spot" after
the changes; but that crashes increase at other nearby locations.

I'm not sure of the explanation. Perhaps the changes are all pretty
much random. Perhaps people feel they can relax their vigilance after
getting past the publicized "black spot."


--
- Frank Krygowski