Buying and Selling

On 2017-09-22 19:03, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 12:36:31 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-09-19 19:44, sms wrote:
On 9/19/2017 6:52 PM, somebody wrote:

On 2017-09-19 07:06, wrote:

snip

Or the brake pads from China, $2/pair and free ship. As I have always
said the postage fees are grossly lopsided between Asia and the US and
that is one of the core reasosn for our trade deficit. Except that most
politicians (except manybe one ...) do not understand that.

It's an international reciprocal postal treaty that no one worried about
when it was mainly U.S. residents of Chinese descent sending packages to
relatives in China.


More than a decade ago tyat has changed, big time. How long does it take
for politicians to turn on their brains? Or for some of them, do they
even have one?


... The origin country gets all the postage and the
destination country gets nothing with the assumption that the volume
will be roughly equal.

The small volume of direct-to-consumer low-value items from China is not
a core reason for the trade deficit.


It is rising, big time. I know people who buy just about anything other
than groceries on EBay. When they say "Oh, it always gets here in three
to five weeks" you know what's going on. Heck, I even had stuff I bought
on Amazon come via "China Post".


... These items would still come into
the U.S. through other channels, at higher prices, were it not so cheap
to do international shipping from China, you'd just have a middleman.


Same reason. The stuff then comes in bulk but the shipping charges are
grossly lower than if a US vendor sent the same items to Asia. It isn't
just China. For example, when we needed name tags for our therapy dogs'
vests (for nursing home visits) we ordered them via Amazon. A small
package arrived from Manila, Philippines. I couldn't believe it
considering that we had paid just a few Dollars. Looked at the postage,
calculated - $0.60. Airmail! It came from a seamstress who appears to
specialize in cloth name tags. The shipping cost discrepancy alone puts
similar seamstresses in the US out of business.

Given that the cost of living, and salaries, are as much as five times
cheaper in China than in the U.S. how is changing the mailing costs
going to effect sales?


The ships and aircraft aren't going to be operable at five times less.


My wife's older sister and her son, his wife, and the grand kids
visited Thailand about six months ago. The grandson, probably 19 years
old, told me that he worked part time at "the dollar store" unloading
trucks for $10 an hour. The current minimum salary in Thailand is 300
baht, about $9 a day. At today's exchange rate the U.S. salary, for
coolie labour, is ~9 times the Thai salary.


Think international for a minute. That changes things.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 7:57:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-23 06:49, wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-22 14:24, sms wrote:

[...]

Of course other countries could reciprocally abuse it, but there aren't
many companies manufacturing low-value consumer goods and shipping them
to Chinese consumers.


It is not all about low value merchandise. To give you just one example:
A guy like me wants to build some electronics for his bicycles and then
find out "Oh rats, I am out of those buck switcher ICs". The guy is not
in a hurry because it's just hobby stuff. He looks at a domestic source
and finds out that the $0.50 parts are available but there will be hefty
shipping fees. Then he fires up EBay, Alibaba or whatever and .. voila
.. the same regulator ICs for roughly the same $0.50 but .. free
shipping. Then he needs a new light. $20. Plus another $12.95 shipping..
WHAT?! Goes on EBay or Amazon - finds Chinese vendor - $20 and free
shipping - ka-ching.

A few days ago while painting I realized that I need brushes that I can
cut and add an angle bracket to but where the tip is short. Not
available locally, web dealers wanted too much in shipping. Found them
in Hong Kong for less than $1.50 a pop and free shipping. So I ordered
- ka-ching. This is not good for domestic painting suppliers.

Multiply this by a gazillion cases and we have a problem.

All you have to do is go through eBay now and you can find the plastic cable ends sold 10 to a pack for $1.50 being sold from China with free shipping. The wrapping on a package cost more than that.

I have stopped buying parts from China.


Why? When you go to the local store and buy for 5x the price you get ...
a part from China. Just heavily marked up along the distribution chain.

Because you have an interest in the continued existence of a bricks and mortar stores. Support American business. Isn't that what the whole conservative thing is about? Or is it about being an AINO? Do you hate American, your adopted homeland? Do you love China . . . NORTH KOREA?

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2017-09-23 06:52, wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 7:03:35 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 12:36:31 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-09-19 19:44, sms wrote:
On 9/19/2017 6:52 PM, somebody wrote:

On 2017-09-19 07:06, wrote:

snip

Or the brake pads from China, $2/pair and free ship. As I
have always said the postage fees are grossly lopsided
between Asia and the US and that is one of the core reasosn
for our trade deficit. Except that most politicians (except
manybe one ...) do not understand that.

It's an international reciprocal postal treaty that no one
worried about when it was mainly U.S. residents of Chinese
descent sending packages to relatives in China.


More than a decade ago tyat has changed, big time. How long does
it take for politicians to turn on their brains? Or for some of
them, do they even have one?


... The origin country gets all the postage and the
destination country gets nothing with the assumption that the
volume will be roughly equal.

The small volume of direct-to-consumer low-value items from
China is not a core reason for the trade deficit.


It is rising, big time. I know people who buy just about anything
other than groceries on EBay. When they say "Oh, it always gets
here in three to five weeks" you know what's going on. Heck, I
even had stuff I bought on Amazon come via "China Post".


... These items would still come into the U.S. through other
channels, at higher prices, were it not so cheap to do
international shipping from China, you'd just have a
middleman.


Same reason. The stuff then comes in bulk but the shipping
charges are grossly lower than if a US vendor sent the same items
to Asia. It isn't just China. For example, when we needed name
tags for our therapy dogs' vests (for nursing home visits) we
ordered them via Amazon. A small package arrived from Manila,
Philippines. I couldn't believe it considering that we had paid
just a few Dollars. Looked at the postage, calculated - $0.60.
Airmail! It came from a seamstress who appears to specialize in
cloth name tags. The shipping cost discrepancy alone puts similar
seamstresses in the US out of business.

Given that the cost of living, and salaries, are as much as five
times cheaper in China than in the U.S. how is changing the mailing
costs going to effect sales?

My wife's older sister and her son, his wife, and the grand kids
visited Thailand about six months ago. The grandson, probably 19
years old, told me that he worked part time at "the dollar store"
unloading trucks for $10 an hour. The current minimum salary in
Thailand is 300 baht, about $9 a day. At today's exchange rate the
U.S. salary, for coolie labour, is ~9 times the Thai salary.

John, are you telling us that wrapping paper, cardboard boxes,
packing plastic bubble wrap and plastic tape are so cheap in Thailand
or China that they can wrap and send small parts worth a couple of
bucks to the US with free shipping and make a profit?


Most likely yes. In China definitely yes, and same for the Philippines.
In the early 90's I saw the complete cost run-down on a fax machine. The
whole enchilada, with labor, testing, printing the manual, the packaging
and all: Slightly over $6. Six bucks. In the Western world those
machines were then retailing under "they put your company name on there"
for several hundred Dollars.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-09-23 08:20, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 7:57:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-23 06:49, wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-22 14:24, sms wrote:

[...]

Of course other countries could reciprocally abuse it, but
there aren't many companies manufacturing low-value consumer
goods and shipping them to Chinese consumers.


It is not all about low value merchandise. To give you just one
example: A guy like me wants to build some electronics for his
bicycles and then find out "Oh rats, I am out of those buck
switcher ICs". The guy is not in a hurry because it's just
hobby stuff. He looks at a domestic source and finds out that
the $0.50 parts are available but there will be hefty shipping
fees. Then he fires up EBay, Alibaba or whatever and .. voila
.. the same regulator ICs for roughly the same $0.50 but ..
free shipping. Then he needs a new light. $20. Plus another
$12.95 shipping. WHAT?! Goes on EBay or Amazon - finds Chinese
vendor - $20 and free shipping - ka-ching.

A few days ago while painting I realized that I need brushes
that I can cut and add an angle bracket to but where the tip is
short. Not available locally, web dealers wanted too much in
shipping. Found them in Hong Kong for less than $1.50 a pop and
free shipping. So I ordered - ka-ching. This is not good for
domestic painting suppliers.

Multiply this by a gazillion cases and we have a problem.

All you have to do is go through eBay now and you can find the
plastic cable ends sold 10 to a pack for $1.50 being sold from
China with free shipping. The wrapping on a package cost more
than that.

I have stopped buying parts from China.


Why? When you go to the local store and buy for 5x the price you
get ... a part from China. Just heavily marked up along the
distribution chain.

Because you have an interest in the continued existence of a bricks
and mortar stores. Support American business. Isn't that what the
whole conservative thing is about?


That is why I buy big stuff here, such as my mountain bike. _If_ the
quality is good. I could have saved a few hundred but the LBS needs to
live. With cars we bought Japanese because domestically the quality just
was not there.


... Or is it about being an AINO? Do
you hate American, your adopted homeland? Do you love China . . .


Nope. However, I draw the line when, for example, mediocre made-in-China
brake pads that last 500mi are sold here for $17/pair and I can get much
better quality brake pads directly from China for $2/pair and they last
800mi. I simply refuse to be taken to the cleaners by middlemen.


NORTH KOREA?


Certainly not. Plus they do not produce anything of any value that is
sold here or to here. Even if they did I wouldn't buy. With China you
mostly don't have a choice. Go to your LBS and look at the fine print on
the cartons.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 7:57:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-23 06:49, wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-22 14:24, sms wrote:

[...]

Of course other countries could reciprocally abuse it, but there aren't
many companies manufacturing low-value consumer goods and shipping them
to Chinese consumers.


It is not all about low value merchandise. To give you just one example:
A guy like me wants to build some electronics for his bicycles and then
find out "Oh rats, I am out of those buck switcher ICs". The guy is not
in a hurry because it's just hobby stuff. He looks at a domestic source
and finds out that the $0.50 parts are available but there will be hefty
shipping fees. Then he fires up EBay, Alibaba or whatever and .. voila
.. the same regulator ICs for roughly the same $0.50 but .. free
shipping. Then he needs a new light. $20. Plus another $12.95 shipping.
WHAT?! Goes on EBay or Amazon - finds Chinese vendor - $20 and free
shipping - ka-ching.

A few days ago while painting I realized that I need brushes that I can
cut and add an angle bracket to but where the tip is short. Not
available locally, web dealers wanted too much in shipping. Found them
in Hong Kong for less than $1.50 a pop and free shipping. So I ordered
- ka-ching. This is not good for domestic painting suppliers.

Multiply this by a gazillion cases and we have a problem.

All you have to do is go through eBay now and you can find the plastic cable ends sold 10 to a pack for $1.50 being sold from China with free shipping. The wrapping on a package cost more than that.

I have stopped buying parts from China.


Why? When you go to the local store and buy for 5x the price you get ...
a part from China. Just heavily marked up along the distribution chain.

I would much rather go to a shop and pay 10x the price than hope that a shipment will arrive at some indeterminate time from China.

On 9/23/2017 5:04 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 7:57:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-23 06:49, wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-22 14:24, sms wrote:

[...]

Of course other countries could reciprocally abuse it, but there aren't
many companies manufacturing low-value consumer goods and shipping them
to Chinese consumers.


It is not all about low value merchandise. To give you just one example:
A guy like me wants to build some electronics for his bicycles and then
find out "Oh rats, I am out of those buck switcher ICs". The guy is not
in a hurry because it's just hobby stuff. He looks at a domestic source
and finds out that the $0.50 parts are available but there will be hefty
shipping fees. Then he fires up EBay, Alibaba or whatever and .. voila
.. the same regulator ICs for roughly the same $0.50 but .. free
shipping. Then he needs a new light. $20. Plus another $12.95 shipping.
WHAT?! Goes on EBay or Amazon - finds Chinese vendor - $20 and free
shipping - ka-ching.

A few days ago while painting I realized that I need brushes that I can
cut and add an angle bracket to but where the tip is short. Not
available locally, web dealers wanted too much in shipping. Found them
in Hong Kong for less than $1.50 a pop and free shipping. So I ordered
- ka-ching. This is not good for domestic painting suppliers.

Multiply this by a gazillion cases and we have a problem.

All you have to do is go through eBay now and you can find the plastic cable ends sold 10 to a pack for $1.50 being sold from China with free shipping. The wrapping on a package cost more than that.

I have stopped buying parts from China.


Why? When you go to the local store and buy for 5x the price you get ...
a part from China. Just heavily marked up along the distribution chain.

I would much rather go to a shop and pay 10x the price than hope that a shipment will arrive at some indeterminate time from China.


Joerg actually made a significant point in that US export
postage is wildly inexplicably expensive compared to other
countries. A medium flat rate mailer to Macao now costs me
$71.95. The return postage was $6.50. This is typical.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 18:08:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Joerg actually made a significant point in that US export postage is
wildly inexplicably expensive compared to other countries. A medium
flat rate mailer to Macao now costs me $71.95. The return postage was
$6.50. This is typical.

In the past 100 years, the US Post Office has *not* lost money in 20 of
those years. FWIW. From the late 1940s until about 1990 it ran an
annual loss averaging about $5 billion per year; starting around 1990 or
so it had 15 years of profitability.

USPS is a weird hybrid of a not-quite-government department and a
not-quite-private business. IIRC that started in Reagan's 2nd term,
prior to that it had a Cabinet level director. There is a board that
runs it of political appointees- 9 of 'em, no more than five of which
can be from one party. They appoint the 10th who is the Postmaster
General. Weird stuff.

There are some money-losing propositions built in to the coft of
business for them, such as having to deliver surface mail to practically
every residence in the country including money-losing deliveries to
places like rural Montana or Wyoming at the same price as dense urban
areas. They have to deliver six days a week, which increases the number
of employees they have to hire (the only civilian employer that is
larger is Walmart). And its power to increase its prices to offset
losses is limited by being subject to government approval rather than
market forces.

On 9/23/2017 7:26 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 18:08:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

Joerg actually made a significant point in that US export postage is
wildly inexplicably expensive compared to other countries. A medium
flat rate mailer to Macao now costs me $71.95. The return postage was
$6.50. This is typical.

In the past 100 years, the US Post Office has *not* lost money in 20 of
those years. FWIW. From the late 1940s until about 1990 it ran an
annual loss averaging about $5 billion per year; starting around 1990 or
so it had 15 years of profitability.

USPS is a weird hybrid of a not-quite-government department and a
not-quite-private business. IIRC that started in Reagan's 2nd term,
prior to that it had a Cabinet level director. There is a board that
runs it of political appointees- 9 of 'em, no more than five of which
can be from one party. They appoint the 10th who is the Postmaster
General. Weird stuff.

There are some money-losing propositions built in to the coft of
business for them, such as having to deliver surface mail to practically
every residence in the country including money-losing deliveries to
places like rural Montana or Wyoming at the same price as dense urban
areas. They have to deliver six days a week, which increases the number
of employees they have to hire (the only civilian employer that is
larger is Walmart). And its power to increase its prices to offset
losses is limited by being subject to government approval rather than
market forces.


All that's true and probably even more complex. For example
USPS operations are hugely profitable but their required
reserves for pensions/benefits are significantly higher,
crippling one might say, compared to either large firms or
governmental entities.

In that regard, new accounting rules for governmental units
(cities, towns, counties plus school, mosquito, forest and
sewage districts, etc) will bring an estimated 2 to 3
trillion (yep, that's T, trillion) dollars of off-book
liabilities back to daylight. Watch those bond rates move
when the awful truth comes out.

So I did not engage any of that in my post above as it's a
numbingly large set of problems (as you note) but the fact
is, US small business exporters are at a distinct
disadvantage in this regard.

https://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432

It is entirely possible to properly fund pension/benefit
obligations, but that requires discipline, rectitude and
determination, virtues sorely lacking in the lesser 49 States:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...sion-system-s/
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 7:03:35 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 12:36:31 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-09-19 19:44, sms wrote:
On 9/19/2017 6:52 PM, somebody wrote:

On 2017-09-19 07:06, wrote:

snip

Or the brake pads from China, $2/pair and free ship. As I have always
said the postage fees are grossly lopsided between Asia and the US and
that is one of the core reasosn for our trade deficit. Except that most
politicians (except manybe one ...) do not understand that.

It's an international reciprocal postal treaty that no one worried about
when it was mainly U.S. residents of Chinese descent sending packages to
relatives in China.


More than a decade ago tyat has changed, big time. How long does it take
for politicians to turn on their brains? Or for some of them, do they
even have one?


... The origin country gets all the postage and the
destination country gets nothing with the assumption that the volume
will be roughly equal.

The small volume of direct-to-consumer low-value items from China is not
a core reason for the trade deficit.


It is rising, big time. I know people who buy just about anything other
than groceries on EBay. When they say "Oh, it always gets here in three
to five weeks" you know what's going on. Heck, I even had stuff I bought
on Amazon come via "China Post".


... These items would still come into
the U.S. through other channels, at higher prices, were it not so cheap
to do international shipping from China, you'd just have a middleman.


Same reason. The stuff then comes in bulk but the shipping charges are
grossly lower than if a US vendor sent the same items to Asia. It isn't
just China. For example, when we needed name tags for our therapy dogs'
vests (for nursing home visits) we ordered them via Amazon. A small
package arrived from Manila, Philippines. I couldn't believe it
considering that we had paid just a few Dollars. Looked at the postage,
calculated - $0.60. Airmail! It came from a seamstress who appears to
specialize in cloth name tags. The shipping cost discrepancy alone puts
similar seamstresses in the US out of business.

Given that the cost of living, and salaries, are as much as five times
cheaper in China than in the U.S. how is changing the mailing costs
going to effect sales?

My wife's older sister and her son, his wife, and the grand kids
visited Thailand about six months ago. The grandson, probably 19 years
old, told me that he worked part time at "the dollar store" unloading
trucks for $10 an hour. The current minimum salary in Thailand is 300
baht, about $9 a day. At today's exchange rate the U.S. salary, for
coolie labour, is ~9 times the Thai salary.

John, are you telling us that wrapping paper, cardboard boxes, packing plastic bubble wrap and plastic tape are so cheap in Thailand or China that they can wrap and send small parts worth a couple of bucks to the US with free shipping and make a profit?

Here they generally pack small stuff in those plastic zip-lock
envelopes and I have no idea how much they cost but they are cheap.
and yes, if you are shipping via a "packed container" then you are
paying (the last I looked) something like $3.00 a cubic metre.

So yes, I can see no reason that one cannot ship small stuff and still
turn a profit.

Example: I bought some anodized valve caps at the monthly swap meet. I
paid 20 baht for a pair, about U.S. 60 cents. Now, given that I am a
foreigner, and everyone knows foreigners are rich, I may have paid
somewhere in the neighborhood of 25% more than a Thai would have. The
guy at the swap meet certainly wasn't a major importer of valve caps
so I assume that there were at least two and probably three dealers
between the manufacturer and me, and every one would have taken a
profit.

So what would it cost to buy valve caps directly from the maker? Maybe
five cents a pair? And how many valve caps can you ship in a 1 cu.
metre box? I have no idea but certainly 1,000 sets would not be a far
fetched number so shipping costs from Shanghai to San Diego is ~3
cents a set. So a pair of valve caps costs ~8 cents a pair landed at
San Diego port. Ebay is selling them for $1.20 a set, a profit of
perhaps $1.12 a pair disregarding any duty paid.

So yes, given costs in most of Asia one can sell parts at what seem to
a Usian as ridiculously cheap prices.

And if you don't believe me just go and price medicine in Canada and
compare it to U.S. prices.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 18:08:58 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 9/23/2017 5:04 PM, wrote:
On Saturday, September 23, 2017 at 7:57:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-23 06:49, wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2017 at 4:20:09 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-22 14:24, sms wrote:

[...]

Of course other countries could reciprocally abuse it, but there aren't
many companies manufacturing low-value consumer goods and shipping them
to Chinese consumers.


It is not all about low value merchandise. To give you just one example:
A guy like me wants to build some electronics for his bicycles and then
find out "Oh rats, I am out of those buck switcher ICs". The guy is not
in a hurry because it's just hobby stuff. He looks at a domestic source
and finds out that the $0.50 parts are available but there will be hefty
shipping fees. Then he fires up EBay, Alibaba or whatever and .. voila
.. the same regulator ICs for roughly the same $0.50 but .. free
shipping. Then he needs a new light. $20. Plus another $12.95 shipping.
WHAT?! Goes on EBay or Amazon - finds Chinese vendor - $20 and free
shipping - ka-ching.

A few days ago while painting I realized that I need brushes that I can
cut and add an angle bracket to but where the tip is short. Not
available locally, web dealers wanted too much in shipping. Found them
in Hong Kong for less than $1.50 a pop and free shipping. So I ordered
- ka-ching. This is not good for domestic painting suppliers.

Multiply this by a gazillion cases and we have a problem.

All you have to do is go through eBay now and you can find the plastic cable ends sold 10 to a pack for $1.50 being sold from China with free shipping. The wrapping on a package cost more than that.

I have stopped buying parts from China.


Why? When you go to the local store and buy for 5x the price you get ...
a part from China. Just heavily marked up along the distribution chain.

I would much rather go to a shop and pay 10x the price than hope that a shipment will arrive at some indeterminate time from China.


Joerg actually made a significant point in that US export
postage is wildly inexplicably expensive compared to other
countries. A medium flat rate mailer to Macao now costs me
$71.95. The return postage was $6.50. This is typical.

But isn't it based on U.S. domestic postal costs? I recently checked
and to mail a letter, domestically, in Thailand is 2 baht, about 6
cents. In the U.S. I believe I read that it is 49 cents.
--
Cheers,

John B.