We're from the government. We're here to help you.

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:17:16 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:16:40 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 12:56 PM, Chalo wrote:
Andre, you should know that "jaywalking" was a social engineering term cooked up by automakers to stigmatize people exercising their rights to use public streets. The campaign worked, and by now most people don't believe that people have a right to the road.

Exactly right.

We recently visited very good friends in a distant city. They were once
avid members of our bike club, and the guy in particular is very, very
safety oriented. (Safety was his profession before he retired.)

At one point he was driving us to some big mall. He turned right off one
major street and about 100 yards later was moving to the left lane to
turn into the mall's parking garage. A woman scurried across the road in
front of us. He fussed at her for jaywalking. "She's refusing to use the
crosswalk right back there!"

But I defended her. The crosswalk was at that busy interction, with at
least five lanes on each of the intersecting streets. If its like most
crosswalks in that area, she'd probably get ten seconds of "WALK" before
the sign started flashing, and she'd be trying to cross at least 60 feet
of pavement. Meanwhile, motorists would be rushing to squeeze their
turns in just before (or during) the red light and paying no heed to
pedestrians.

Where she crossed, she just had to look to the left, scurry to a
landscaped center island, then wait in safety as she looked for clear
space to the right. And besides, what right does a motorists sitting in
a cushy seat have to tell a pedestrian they have to walk an additional
200 yards?


You're f****** nuts. Pedestrians-as-squirrels are one of my biggest nightmares -- on a bike! I have people step of curbs in unmarked areas, against lights -- basically whenever they get the urge. Riding in the cycletrack near PSU is a joke with all the witless college kids just stepping into the facility looking down at their iPhones. This is our future? Pedestrians acting badly are a real threat to lawful cyclists.

-- Jay Beattie.

Absolutely but Pedestrians are supposed to have right of way anywhere but on limited access roads (freeways).

I have just been having these sorts of arguments with people concerning SPEED LIMITS. You are in violation of the speed limit if yo go ONE MPH over the speed limit. Cops normally give you a 5 mph cushion because speedometer accuracy has to do with both the instrument and tire wear. But they do not have to do that. And in fact the radar speed limit signs start blinking at 1 mph over.

In California 15 mph over the limit automatically means reckless driving and that fine with the speed limit fines can end up being thousands of dollars.

So why does the state cry poor-mouth and want to raise taxes yet again and yet leave literally billions in fines on the table?

On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:36:50 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/8/2019 4:17 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:16:40 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 12:56 PM, Chalo wrote:
Andre, you should know that "jaywalking" was a social engineering term cooked up by automakers to stigmatize people exercising their rights to use public streets. The campaign worked, and by now most people don't believe that people have a right to the road.

Exactly right.

We recently visited very good friends in a distant city. They were once
avid members of our bike club, and the guy in particular is very, very
safety oriented. (Safety was his profession before he retired.)

At one point he was driving us to some big mall. He turned right off one
major street and about 100 yards later was moving to the left lane to
turn into the mall's parking garage. A woman scurried across the road in
front of us. He fussed at her for jaywalking. "She's refusing to use the
crosswalk right back there!"

But I defended her. The crosswalk was at that busy interction, with at
least five lanes on each of the intersecting streets. If its like most
crosswalks in that area, she'd probably get ten seconds of "WALK" before
the sign started flashing, and she'd be trying to cross at least 60 feet
of pavement. Meanwhile, motorists would be rushing to squeeze their
turns in just before (or during) the red light and paying no heed to
pedestrians.

Where she crossed, she just had to look to the left, scurry to a
landscaped center island, then wait in safety as she looked for clear
space to the right. And besides, what right does a motorists sitting in
a cushy seat have to tell a pedestrian they have to walk an additional
200 yards?


You're f****** nuts. Pedestrians-as-squirrels are one of my biggest nightmares -- on a bike! I have people step of curbs in unmarked areas, against lights -- basically whenever they get the urge. Riding in the cycletrack near PSU is a joke with all the witless college kids just stepping into the facility looking down at their iPhones. This is our future? Pedestrians acting badly are a real threat to lawful cyclists.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes.
Used to be annoying. Now that the wandering idiots meander
all over hell with earbuds, texting and pot it's outright
dangerous.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Pedestrians have right-of-way but they too can be ticketed for careless walking. But they do NOT have to cross at cross walks. Hell, in Phoenix they would have to walk a half mile to even find a cross walk.

Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 07.12.2019 um 22:52 schrieb Andre Jute:

In the mists of time, a Police Commissioner believed that enforcing
jaywalking laws would make the police unpopular with the populace. It
somehow became known through the police that HQ wasn't keen to
prosecute jaywalkers. Now, decades later, Cork is known as the world
capital of jaywalkers.
Cork cannot be the capital of jaywalkers because European
jurisdictions (Vienna Convention) do not disallow crossing the
road. The strongest Europe has is a recommendation "You should use a
crosswalk if there is one within 50 yards of you".

I have visited Vienna, and there I joined crowds of pedestrians
patiently waiting for the walk signal even though there was not a car to
be seen. I waited too, peer pressure and all that.

I'll wager Cork is not like that.

On 12/9/2019 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/9/2019 3:52 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:

Cork cannot be the capital of jaywalkers because European
jurisdictions (Vienna Convention) do not disallow crossing
the road. The strongest Europe has is a recommendation
"You should use a crosswalk if there is one within 50
yards of you".

That's interesting, and much better than some ordinances
around here that require crossing only at marked or unmarked
crosswalks. (An "unmarked crosswalk" is the unmarked
extension of a side street's sidewalk. It's treated as a
legal crosswalk, although only one in 100 motorists realize
that.)

Our village has a couple schools within about a quarter mile
of the library. There are two streets kids can use to get to
and cross South Main St. on their way to the library. The
more pleasant street has no traffic light, so the village
wanted the kids to use the intersection with the traffic
light and pedestrian light.

Their solution? They put up "No crossing" signs directly
across from the library, and at the intersection about 50
feet away that has no signal.

My wife and I ignore those signs. It should be OK, because
from what I can tell, the village never actually passed an
ordinance regarding that. And the speed limit is only 25
mph, through an area with shops and historic buildings.
Motorists _should_ be slow and careful.



Who dreams up this crap and why are we so woefully short of
bureaucrat assassinations?

Can't you get an exemption based on being old enough to have
once been a free citizen of a free country?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/9/2019 11:27 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 2:17:16 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:16:40 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 12:56 PM, Chalo wrote:
Andre, you should know that "jaywalking" was a social engineering term cooked up by automakers to stigmatize people exercising their rights to use public streets. The campaign worked, and by now most people don't believe that people have a right to the road.

Exactly right.

We recently visited very good friends in a distant city. They were once
avid members of our bike club, and the guy in particular is very, very
safety oriented. (Safety was his profession before he retired.)

At one point he was driving us to some big mall. He turned right off one
major street and about 100 yards later was moving to the left lane to
turn into the mall's parking garage. A woman scurried across the road in
front of us. He fussed at her for jaywalking. "She's refusing to use the
crosswalk right back there!"

But I defended her. The crosswalk was at that busy interction, with at
least five lanes on each of the intersecting streets. If its like most
crosswalks in that area, she'd probably get ten seconds of "WALK" before
the sign started flashing, and she'd be trying to cross at least 60 feet
of pavement. Meanwhile, motorists would be rushing to squeeze their
turns in just before (or during) the red light and paying no heed to
pedestrians.

Where she crossed, she just had to look to the left, scurry to a
landscaped center island, then wait in safety as she looked for clear
space to the right. And besides, what right does a motorists sitting in
a cushy seat have to tell a pedestrian they have to walk an additional
200 yards?


You're f****** nuts. Pedestrians-as-squirrels are one of my biggest nightmares -- on a bike! I have people step of curbs in unmarked areas, against lights -- basically whenever they get the urge. Riding in the cycletrack near PSU is a joke with all the witless college kids just stepping into the facility looking down at their iPhones. This is our future? Pedestrians acting badly are a real threat to lawful cyclists.

-- Jay Beattie.

Absolutely but Pedestrians are supposed to have right of way anywhere but on limited access roads (freeways).

I have just been having these sorts of arguments with people concerning SPEED LIMITS. You are in violation of the speed limit if yo go ONE MPH over the speed limit. Cops normally give you a 5 mph cushion because speedometer accuracy has to do with both the instrument and tire wear. But they do not have to do that. And in fact the radar speed limit signs start blinking at 1 mph over.

In California 15 mph over the limit automatically means reckless driving and that fine with the speed limit fines can end up being thousands of dollars.

So why does the state cry poor-mouth and want to raise taxes yet again and yet leave literally billions in fines on the table?


I have some experience in the area.

For one thing, defense counsel can't even get an argument
started when prosecution offers some niggling portion of the
fine (or drive tax or fee or whatever) to avid trial.

From my point of view, I'd rather pay double the fine and
plead to a lesser charge. That's hard to arrange but even a
double fine is less than base fees to counsel. The real cost
is in liberty not dollars. Pay the tax, suck it up and move
on I say. If one is inattentive to the various meters
running (total points in a year, total in 5 years, habitual
offender citation count, etc) you'll be suspended or revoked
after which you _will_ be jailed for driving without after
susp/revo. Illegals or criminals no but taxpayers yes on
that one.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/9/2019 11:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 3:36:50 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/8/2019 4:17 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 8, 2019 at 11:16:40 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/8/2019 12:56 PM, Chalo wrote:
Andre, you should know that "jaywalking" was a social engineering term cooked up by automakers to stigmatize people exercising their rights to use public streets. The campaign worked, and by now most people don't believe that people have a right to the road.

Exactly right.

We recently visited very good friends in a distant city. They were once
avid members of our bike club, and the guy in particular is very, very
safety oriented. (Safety was his profession before he retired.)

At one point he was driving us to some big mall. He turned right off one
major street and about 100 yards later was moving to the left lane to
turn into the mall's parking garage. A woman scurried across the road in
front of us. He fussed at her for jaywalking. "She's refusing to use the
crosswalk right back there!"

But I defended her. The crosswalk was at that busy interction, with at
least five lanes on each of the intersecting streets. If its like most
crosswalks in that area, she'd probably get ten seconds of "WALK" before
the sign started flashing, and she'd be trying to cross at least 60 feet
of pavement. Meanwhile, motorists would be rushing to squeeze their
turns in just before (or during) the red light and paying no heed to
pedestrians.

Where she crossed, she just had to look to the left, scurry to a
landscaped center island, then wait in safety as she looked for clear
space to the right. And besides, what right does a motorists sitting in
a cushy seat have to tell a pedestrian they have to walk an additional
200 yards?


You're f****** nuts. Pedestrians-as-squirrels are one of my biggest nightmares -- on a bike! I have people step of curbs in unmarked areas, against lights -- basically whenever they get the urge. Riding in the cycletrack near PSU is a joke with all the witless college kids just stepping into the facility looking down at their iPhones. This is our future? Pedestrians acting badly are a real threat to lawful cyclists.

-- Jay Beattie.


Yes.
Used to be annoying. Now that the wandering idiots meander
all over hell with earbuds, texting and pot it's outright
dangerous.


Pedestrians have right-of-way but they too can be ticketed for careless walking. But they do NOT have to cross at cross walks. Hell, in Phoenix they would have to walk a half mile to even find a cross walk.


Phoenix? Right that was AI Automobile's first victim if I
recall.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/9/2019 3:54 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/9/2019 3:52 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:

Cork cannot be the capital of jaywalkers because European
jurisdictions (Vienna Convention) do not disallow crossing
the road. The strongest Europe has is a recommendation
"You should use a crosswalk if there is one within 50
yards of you".

That's interesting, and much better than some ordinances
around here that require crossing only at marked or unmarked
crosswalks. (An "unmarked crosswalk" is the unmarked
extension of a side street's sidewalk. It's treated as a
legal crosswalk, although only one in 100 motorists realize
that.)

Our village has a couple schools within about a quarter mile
of the library. There are two streets kids can use to get to
and cross South Main St. on their way to the library. The
more pleasant street has no traffic light, so the village
wanted the kids to use the intersection with the traffic
light and pedestrian light.

Their solution? They put up "No crossing" signs directly
across from the library, and at the intersection about 50
feet away that has no signal.

My wife and I ignore those signs. It should be OK, because
from what I can tell, the village never actually passed an
ordinance regarding that. And the speed limit is only 25
mph, through an area with shops and historic buildings.
Motorists _should_ be slow and careful.



Who dreams up this crap and why are we so woefully short of bureaucrat
assassinations?

Can't you get an exemption based on being old enough to have once been a
free citizen of a free country?

I've made my own exemption. And I'd be astonished if a cop ever talked
to me about it. Although we haven't had any social contact for a while,
I consider the police chief a friend.

Nonsense like this typically arises in Village Council, where one or
another of the councilmen gets a wild hair. There are some good people
on council, but there are times they just roll their eyes and decide to
choose another battle.

Another example: There's a lovely creek running through the village's
forest preserve, then under Main Street right alongside the village hall
and the library. A couple years ago, some school kids were horsing
around and one of them slid into the creek and scratched himself.

Well, the cut got infected. The kid's grandmother claimed it proved that
the creek water is dangerously polluted, and called for fences along the
creek to prevent anyone from touching the water. She attended several
council meetings demanding something be done.

Council compromised, putting up signs by Village Hall, plus two in the
forest preserve, saying something like "Do not enter or drink the water."

My kid, when she was young, floated (and/or dragged) an inflatable raft
the entire length of that creek. Kids have splashed and swum in it for
at least 200 years. I've ridden through it on my mountain bike. We've
looked for crayfish under rocks, etc. etc. The lady is nuts, and most
people think so.

But: Safety inflation!



--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, December 9, 2019 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/9/2019 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/9/2019 3:52 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:

Cork cannot be the capital of jaywalkers because European
jurisdictions (Vienna Convention) do not disallow crossing
the road. The strongest Europe has is a recommendation
"You should use a crosswalk if there is one within 50
yards of you".

That's interesting, and much better than some ordinances
around here that require crossing only at marked or unmarked
crosswalks. (An "unmarked crosswalk" is the unmarked
extension of a side street's sidewalk. It's treated as a
legal crosswalk, although only one in 100 motorists realize
that.)

Our village has a couple schools within about a quarter mile
of the library. There are two streets kids can use to get to
and cross South Main St. on their way to the library. The
more pleasant street has no traffic light, so the village
wanted the kids to use the intersection with the traffic
light and pedestrian light.

Their solution? They put up "No crossing" signs directly
across from the library, and at the intersection about 50
feet away that has no signal.

My wife and I ignore those signs. It should be OK, because
from what I can tell, the village never actually passed an
ordinance regarding that. And the speed limit is only 25
mph, through an area with shops and historic buildings.
Motorists _should_ be slow and careful.



Who dreams up this crap and why are we so woefully short of
bureaucrat assassinations?

Can't you get an exemption based on being old enough to have
once been a free citizen of a free country?

When was that?

Wis. Stat. 944.16  Adultery. Whoever does either of the following is guilty of a Class I felony:
(1) A married person who has sexual intercourse with a person not the married person's spouse; or
(2) A person who has sexual intercourse with a person who is married to another.

Originally enacted in 1849.

80% of everything you do on a daily basis would result in a fine or criminal punishment in colonial Virginia. https://www.history.org/foundation/j...g03/branks.cfm

-- Jay Beattie.

On 12/9/2019 1:49 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Rolf Mantel writes:

Am 07.12.2019 um 22:52 schrieb Andre Jute:

In the mists of time, a Police Commissioner believed that enforcing
jaywalking laws would make the police unpopular with the populace. It
somehow became known through the police that HQ wasn't keen to
prosecute jaywalkers. Now, decades later, Cork is known as the world
capital of jaywalkers.
Cork cannot be the capital of jaywalkers because European
jurisdictions (Vienna Convention) do not disallow crossing the
road. The strongest Europe has is a recommendation "You should use a
crosswalk if there is one within 50 yards of you".

I have visited Vienna, and there I joined crowds of pedestrians
patiently waiting for the walk signal even though there was not a car to
be seen. I waited too, peer pressure and all that.

I'll wager Cork is not like that.

Cultures differ!

One friend of my wife's visited Germany, then Italy, going along with
her husband on a business trip. She's of Italian ancestry.

She noted that in Germany, people waited in an orderly line for the bus,
and when it arrived, entered the bus in that line.

She was very dismayed that in Italy, the custom was different. When the
bus doors opened, everyone pushed forward in a big scrum, trying to
shove their way to the bus door.

She's Italian, but she preferred Germany.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 09 Dec 2019 14:54:10 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/9/2019 11:13 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/9/2019 3:52 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:

Cork cannot be the capital of jaywalkers because European
jurisdictions (Vienna Convention) do not disallow crossing
the road. The strongest Europe has is a recommendation
"You should use a crosswalk if there is one within 50
yards of you".

That's interesting, and much better than some ordinances
around here that require crossing only at marked or unmarked
crosswalks. (An "unmarked crosswalk" is the unmarked
extension of a side street's sidewalk. It's treated as a
legal crosswalk, although only one in 100 motorists realize
that.)

Our village has a couple schools within about a quarter mile
of the library. There are two streets kids can use to get to
and cross South Main St. on their way to the library. The
more pleasant street has no traffic light, so the village
wanted the kids to use the intersection with the traffic
light and pedestrian light.

Their solution? They put up "No crossing" signs directly
across from the library, and at the intersection about 50
feet away that has no signal.

My wife and I ignore those signs. It should be OK, because
from what I can tell, the village never actually passed an
ordinance regarding that. And the speed limit is only 25
mph, through an area with shops and historic buildings.
Motorists _should_ be slow and careful.



Who dreams up this crap and why are we so woefully short of
bureaucrat assassinations?

Can't you get an exemption based on being old enough to have
once been a free citizen of a free country?

But you never were a free citizen in a free country. Read the laws
promulgated by the "Pilgrims" in the New England colonies where you
could be punished for not attending church on Sunday, and that was
specifically Their church. Where strangers in town were forbidden to
remain; Where lying could be punished by "or be whipped upon the naked
body".
--
cheers,

John B.